I'll attempt to answer the OP's question by way of a few observations.
First, I find it amusing when people basically say "RNG is fine--you can trade." That's akin to saying "Those piranha-infested waters are fine--you can build a bridge." Saying that RNG is fine because it can be circumvented isn't any sort of coherent argument in favor of RNG, but instead an implicit admission that RNG in PoE isn't fine, to the extent that one needs to avoid interfacing with it as much as possible.
That said, in the broader context of the aRPG genre, RNG is a good thing. The thrill of finding a great, rare item only exists insofar as there are also bad, common items. Even if you haven't yet found such an item, the hope of finding one at some point adds excitement and a sense of anticipation. But that hope needs to be rewarded once in a while so it can be realistic as opposed to the kind of vain fantasy people indulge in when they buy lottery tickets. And right now, in PoE there are galaxies of space in between the current reward structure and the strawman caricature of self-found players who supposedly want 6L's and T1's and mirrors to rain from the sky. What self-found players actually want is a reasonable rate of progression for time played.
As a self-found player who's played since closed beta and logged somewhere between 1000 and 1500 hours, (and even found a mirror! "I AM LUCKY THEREFORE GAME IS FINE LOLOL") what I find frustrating is that the reward structure and the rate of progression it dictates actually works well to a point. But then there's this basically insurmountable brick wall where the game devolves into mindlessly grinding for hours while waiting for something, anything good to drop. It's interesting that in this latest patch GGG apparently relented in regards to their broken map system when so much of the rest of the game functions in the same way. Just like people get pissed off when they keep finding level 68 maps while running a 76, I don't enjoy finding the same shitty t4 unique for the 30th time when I've never found literally the majority of uniques in the game. Similarly, 5-linking an item is completely reasonable, but 6-linking an item (something I've never done) is hopeless. Would it honestly be so bad if a T1 unique dropped, say, every 250-400 hours of gameplay on average, instead of never? Or if 6L odds were 1:500 instead of somewhere between 1:1000-1500? Or if an Exalted Orb dropped every 20-30 hours of gameplay instead of my estimate of every 80-100?
A properly rewarding level of RNG is about more than time played, though. I don't merely want to find better gear that enables me to do harder content; I also want harder content to come with the appeal of generally finding better gear, and this is, in my opinion, where PoE totally fails. There's a pretty easy argument to be made that running Tropical Island is more rewarding than running Core. Sure, there's a point where Tropical Island essentially stops giving XP, and items in Core can roll T1 affixes, but most of those advantages are negated by the amount of currency investment required to even find a Core map, and even if you had infinite of both maps, there are obvious differences in clearspeed and safety. Worse, if it's uniques you're after, you're probably best off never mapping at all and just facerolling Voll or Dominus ad nauseum. Atziri actually makes a lot of sense with her exclusive loot table and guaranteed unique, but oops, map fragment RNG: enjoy running utterly worthless zones for hours trying to find even a single Midnight.
All of which is to say, RNG done properly is the carrot on a stick that makes aRPG's compellingly fun. But GGG apparently thinks having an in-game economy is more important than having rewarding gameplay, so they throw away the carrot and use RNG as the stick itself, to beat players into demoralized submission to get them to trade to win, which is antithetical to the paradigm of the genre.
Thank you for this post. You described very well the situation in this game.
People usually appreciate the RNG component in an ARPG. They despise its greedy implementation in Path of Famine.
I'll attempt to answer the OP's question by way of a few observations.
First, I find it amusing when people basically say "RNG is fine--you can trade." That's akin to saying "Those piranha-infested waters are fine--you can build a bridge." Saying that RNG is fine because it can be circumvented isn't any sort of coherent argument in favor of RNG, but instead an implicit admission that RNG in PoE isn't fine, to the extent that one needs to avoid interfacing with it as much as possible.
That said, in the broader context of the aRPG genre, RNG is a good thing. The thrill of finding a great, rare item only exists insofar as there are also bad, common items. Even if you haven't yet found such an item, the hope of finding one at some point adds excitement and a sense of anticipation. But that hope needs to be rewarded once in a while so it can be realistic as opposed to the kind of vain fantasy people indulge in when they buy lottery tickets. And right now, in PoE there are galaxies of space in between the current reward structure and the strawman caricature of self-found players who supposedly want 6L's and T1's and mirrors to rain from the sky. What self-found players actually want is a reasonable rate of progression for time played.
As a self-found player who's played since closed beta and logged somewhere between 1000 and 1500 hours, (and even found a mirror! "I AM LUCKY THEREFORE GAME IS FINE LOLOL") what I find frustrating is that the reward structure and the rate of progression it dictates actually works well to a point. But then there's this basically insurmountable brick wall where the game devolves into mindlessly grinding for hours while waiting for something, anything good to drop. It's interesting that in this latest patch GGG apparently relented in regards to their broken map system when so much of the rest of the game functions in the same way. Just like people get pissed off when they keep finding level 68 maps while running a 76, I don't enjoy finding the same shitty t4 unique for the 30th time when I've never found literally the majority of uniques in the game. Similarly, 5-linking an item is completely reasonable, but 6-linking an item (something I've never done) is hopeless. Would it honestly be so bad if a T1 unique dropped, say, every 250-400 hours of gameplay on average, instead of never? Or if 6L odds were 1:500 instead of somewhere between 1:1000-1500? Or if an Exalted Orb dropped every 20-30 hours of gameplay instead of my estimate of every 80-100?
A properly rewarding level of RNG is about more than time played, though. I don't merely want to find better gear that enables me to do harder content; I also want harder content to come with the appeal of generally finding better gear, and this is, in my opinion, where PoE totally fails. There's a pretty easy argument to be made that running Tropical Island is more rewarding than running Core. Sure, there's a point where Tropical Island essentially stops giving XP, and items in Core can roll T1 affixes, but most of those advantages are negated by the amount of currency investment required to even find a Core map, and even if you had infinite of both maps, there are obvious differences in clearspeed and safety. Worse, if it's uniques you're after, you're probably best off never mapping at all and just facerolling Voll or Dominus ad nauseum. Atziri actually makes a lot of sense with her exclusive loot table and guaranteed unique, but oops, map fragment RNG: enjoy running utterly worthless zones for hours trying to find even a single Midnight.
All of which is to say, RNG done properly is the carrot on a stick that makes aRPG's compellingly fun. But GGG apparently thinks having an in-game economy is more important than having rewarding gameplay, so they throw away the carrot and use RNG as the stick itself, to beat players into demoralized submission to get them to trade to win, which is antithetical to the paradigm of the genre.
I'll attempt to answer the OP's question by way of a few observations.
First, I find it amusing when people basically say "RNG is fine--you can trade." That's akin to saying "Those piranha-infested waters are fine--you can build a bridge." Saying that RNG is fine because it can be circumvented isn't any sort of coherent argument in favor of RNG, but instead an implicit admission that RNG in PoE isn't fine, to the extent that one needs to avoid interfacing with it as much as possible.
That said, in the broader context of the aRPG genre, RNG is a good thing. The thrill of finding a great, rare item only exists insofar as there are also bad, common items. Even if you haven't yet found such an item, the hope of finding one at some point adds excitement and a sense of anticipation. But that hope needs to be rewarded once in a while so it can be realistic as opposed to the kind of vain fantasy people indulge in when they buy lottery tickets. And right now, in PoE there are galaxies of space in between the current reward structure and the strawman caricature of self-found players who supposedly want 6L's and T1's and mirrors to rain from the sky. What self-found players actually want is a reasonable rate of progression for time played.
As a self-found player who's played since closed beta and logged somewhere between 1000 and 1500 hours, (and even found a mirror! "I AM LUCKY THEREFORE GAME IS FINE LOLOL") what I find frustrating is that the reward structure and the rate of progression it dictates actually works well to a point. But then there's this basically insurmountable brick wall where the game devolves into mindlessly grinding for hours while waiting for something, anything good to drop. It's interesting that in this latest patch GGG apparently relented in regards to their broken map system when so much of the rest of the game functions in the same way. Just like people get pissed off when they keep finding level 68 maps while running a 76, I don't enjoy finding the same shitty t4 unique for the 30th time when I've never found literally the majority of uniques in the game. Similarly, 5-linking an item is completely reasonable, but 6-linking an item (something I've never done) is hopeless. Would it honestly be so bad if a T1 unique dropped, say, every 250-400 hours of gameplay on average, instead of never? Or if 6L odds were 1:500 instead of somewhere between 1:1000-1500? Or if an Exalted Orb dropped every 20-30 hours of gameplay instead of my estimate of every 80-100?
A properly rewarding level of RNG is about more than time played, though. I don't merely want to find better gear that enables me to do harder content; I also want harder content to come with the appeal of generally finding better gear, and this is, in my opinion, where PoE totally fails. There's a pretty easy argument to be made that running Tropical Island is more rewarding than running Core. Sure, there's a point where Tropical Island essentially stops giving XP, and items in Core can roll T1 affixes, but most of those advantages are negated by the amount of currency investment required to even find a Core map, and even if you had infinite of both maps, there are obvious differences in clearspeed and safety. Worse, if it's uniques you're after, you're probably best off never mapping at all and just facerolling Voll or Dominus ad nauseum. Atziri actually makes a lot of sense with her exclusive loot table and guaranteed unique, but oops, map fragment RNG: enjoy running utterly worthless zones for hours trying to find even a single Midnight.
All of which is to say, RNG done properly is the carrot on a stick that makes aRPG's compellingly fun. But GGG apparently thinks having an in-game economy is more important than having rewarding gameplay, so they throw away the carrot and use RNG as the stick itself, to beat players into demoralized submission to get them to trade to win, which is antithetical to the paradigm of the genre.
yes.
bravo!
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
All of which is to say, RNG done properly is the carrot on a stick that makes aRPG's compellingly fun. But GGG apparently thinks having an in-game economy is more important than having rewarding gameplay
You are right. But in my eyes, GGG uses RNG to "artificially" make the game longer, in lack of content - using the "no-lifers" (read: dedicated players who, for some reason, is able to put in 16 gaming hours a day) as a template.
It takes them 2-3 months to put in 1000 hours of game play. When that becomes the "norm", the rest WILL struggle. For a long time.
Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you.
You are right. But in my eyes, GGG uses RNG to "artificially" make the game longer, in lack of content - using the "no-lifers" (read: dedicated players who, for some reason, is able to put in 16 gaming hours a day) as a template.
it doesn't have to be like this.
maybe 2-3 years ago the game needed the publicity famous Streamers gave it, but now it has quite enough content, and at least a few hundred thousand players.
most of which know quality when they see it.
now, GGG can focus on making the game what it is destined to be. no strings attached.
and you know what? even if the 16-hours-a-day no-lifers do everything there is to do, in a matter of a month - I bet they won't just cast away the game, because they can appreciate quality too.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
Last edited by johnKeys on Aug 25, 2015, 3:05:29 PM
I'll attempt to answer the OP's question by way of a few observations.
First, I find it amusing when people basically say "RNG is fine--you can trade." That's akin to saying "Those piranha-infested waters are fine--you can build a bridge." Saying that RNG is fine because it can be circumvented isn't any sort of coherent argument in favor of RNG, but instead an implicit admission that RNG in PoE isn't fine, to the extent that one needs to avoid interfacing with it as much as possible.
That said, in the broader context of the aRPG genre, RNG is a good thing. The thrill of finding a great, rare item only exists insofar as there are also bad, common items. Even if you haven't yet found such an item, the hope of finding one at some point adds excitement and a sense of anticipation. But that hope needs to be rewarded once in a while so it can be realistic as opposed to the kind of vain fantasy people indulge in when they buy lottery tickets. And right now, in PoE there are galaxies of space in between the current reward structure and the strawman caricature of self-found players who supposedly want 6L's and T1's and mirrors to rain from the sky. What self-found players actually want is a reasonable rate of progression for time played.
As a self-found player who's played since closed beta and logged somewhere between 1000 and 1500 hours, (and even found a mirror! "I AM LUCKY THEREFORE GAME IS FINE LOLOL") what I find frustrating is that the reward structure and the rate of progression it dictates actually works well to a point. But then there's this basically insurmountable brick wall where the game devolves into mindlessly grinding for hours while waiting for something, anything good to drop. It's interesting that in this latest patch GGG apparently relented in regards to their broken map system when so much of the rest of the game functions in the same way. Just like people get pissed off when they keep finding level 68 maps while running a 76, I don't enjoy finding the same shitty t4 unique for the 30th time when I've never found literally the majority of uniques in the game. Similarly, 5-linking an item is completely reasonable, but 6-linking an item (something I've never done) is hopeless. Would it honestly be so bad if a T1 unique dropped, say, every 250-400 hours of gameplay on average, instead of never? Or if 6L odds were 1:500 instead of somewhere between 1:1000-1500? Or if an Exalted Orb dropped every 20-30 hours of gameplay instead of my estimate of every 80-100?
A properly rewarding level of RNG is about more than time played, though. I don't merely want to find better gear that enables me to do harder content; I also want harder content to come with the appeal of generally finding better gear, and this is, in my opinion, where PoE totally fails. There's a pretty easy argument to be made that running Tropical Island is more rewarding than running Core. Sure, there's a point where Tropical Island essentially stops giving XP, and items in Core can roll T1 affixes, but most of those advantages are negated by the amount of currency investment required to even find a Core map, and even if you had infinite of both maps, there are obvious differences in clearspeed and safety. Worse, if it's uniques you're after, you're probably best off never mapping at all and just facerolling Voll or Dominus ad nauseum. Atziri actually makes a lot of sense with her exclusive loot table and guaranteed unique, but oops, map fragment RNG: enjoy running utterly worthless zones for hours trying to find even a single Midnight.
All of which is to say, RNG done properly is the carrot on a stick that makes aRPG's compellingly fun. But GGG apparently thinks having an in-game economy is more important than having rewarding gameplay, so they throw away the carrot and use RNG as the stick itself, to beat players into demoralized submission to get them to trade to win, which is antithetical to the paradigm of the genre.
Damn, that's 100% spot on. GGG needs to print this out and have a hard discussion in regards to this. Man, to think what PoE could be if they adopted some common sense reforms. /daydreams :D
Edit: @Scrotie your maths completely ignore the psychological component related to reward schedules/reinforcements.
Last edited by GeorgAnatoly on Aug 25, 2015, 6:39:49 PM
Let's say there's a large group of people in the room, and I give each of them a completely random number between 0 and 100 million. The average result in the room would be 50 million.
Now let's say I did it two more times (3 total), and all we cared about was whichever of each person's three random numbers was highest. The average result in the room would be 75 million.
Four times total? 80 million.
Nine times total? 90 million.
And so on. It follows the formula x/(x+1); first 1/2, then 2/3 with two times, 3/4 with three times, etc.
So, if you double drop rates, you go from a progression curve represented by the yellow line, to a progression curve represented by the blue line.
Thus, if you actually understand the math behind affix systems, you will realize no matter how you set the droprate endgame gear progression will inevitably slow to a grind, because the availability of affixes becomes static (that is, superior affixes do not become available).
The real droprate problem is that no droprate adjustment exists which will solve your problems.
@johnKeys: here's what i believe:
1. johnKey's computer, and many others like his, has crappy performance playing PoE. Maybe hardware, maybe a malware infestation, maybe shitty service from their ISP, maybe some mix of those.
2. As a result of #1, certain actions which I use all the time just do not work on those machines. For example, I can just kite mobs, or time my Immortal Call for an ideal duration; these players need to tank+spank more, or rely on a CWDT IC instead.
3. As a result of #2, these players are more reliant on gear. I can get away with weak defensive stats on my armour, and I don't need CWDT setups at all; these players need good mitigation gear and an extra red gem socket.
4. As a result of #3, wealth is more important to these players as a means of progression. I don't need much, other than maybe a halfway decent weapon, to do maps; these players can't much get away with shit gear.
5. As a result of #4, these players are at the mercy of RNG to progress, while I am not.
Thus, because johnKey's computer is a piece of shit, he has thrown himself upon the mercy of RNGesus, while I can give zero shits about gearchecks and just skill my way through maps.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Aug 25, 2015, 6:41:34 PM
I'm happy with the current RNG except for one thing. Maintaining map pool is currently dreadful. How am i supposed to progress in the game? What's the problem of dissing out those maps like in the old days? It would only affect the price of maps. If it's about the exp then double or triple the exp needed to go from lvl 95 to 100. If it's about people running out of things to do, then let's get some new content, perhaps with some infinite parameters. I hate these artificial restrictions to drag out the game. I want to play the game and have a fair chance at getting better gear from harder areas without always running out of maps.
Personally, I complain about RNG because I have watched around 550 exalts worth of loot drop for the ONE other person I play with, while I have gotten about 15 exalts worth. It's like, how many times can a quarter come up fucking heads?? lol
If you play hardcore, you'd understand that you dont need 500 worth of exaults to play a build and be successful at it...
My problem with the RNG in this game is that everything is gated behind it. Everything!
I don't mind that finding good gear is RNG. That's a big part of an aRPG,
but take (uber) Atziri for example:
- first you need good RNG to find currupted areas.
- RNG needed to get sac pieces and not vaal gems.
- RNG needed to get the right sac pieces by rerunning corrupted areas via the mapdevice.
- RNG needed to get mortal pieces.
- RNG needed to get the right mortal pieces.
You want to do maps/endgame?
- RNG to find your first maps. Not that hard honestly:)
- RNG needed to find any maps while in maps (can be partially fixed by spending currency)
- Super good RNG needed to find endgame maps (i'm still stuck at level 78/79, and I map a lot!)
(The massive currency sink for maps is also a thing i really hate, but that is another topic)
Currency?
- You need seriously good RNG to find the good orbs (ex/div) and there is nothing you can do to increase your RNG in that. Everyone finds a chaos orb now and then, or other stuff. But some people find 5 ex in the first week of a new league and some find none for weeks/months. I'd rather pay 50 ex for a crappy unique just as long as exalted orb drop reasonably, then paying 2 ex for a good unique when no exalted orbs drop.
(I had my first ex drop after 4 weeks in the current league and with the WB prices as they are i'm so glad i have a IIR/IIQ flame totem build, with no gear requirment. No need to spend that little currency i have on gear)
For me, when i think of RNG and POE is see too much RNG:
- gear
- maps
- atziri
- currency
- finding masters / not getting the OMGWTF missions that are impossible to do
The succes of your POE experience is entirely gated behind RNG. I have seen people quit POE just because they never had any good RNG whatsoever.
Just a week ago i mapped with a guy that YOLO-alched maps, with no chisels, no rerolling with chaos. just alc and go. Although it were level 75-77 maps, he found upgrade maps in every run were i was stuck at 75 maps for 2 weeks by that time with spending way too much currency with no results. This pissed me off so much i quit playing with him. Mind you, this was before the mapdrop buff of end last week.
There were too many times i get a 68 map drop in my high level map and just think "slap in da face by GGG, again. This should be made illegal". No joke, i think this a lot.
TLDR: RNG is part of an aRPG, but POE has too much imo. finding-gear-RNG okay, rest should be toned down (toned down, not completely gone).
Why is it so hard to trade in a game that has an amazing trade system?
