Why do people complain about RNG when you're playing an ARPG?

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grepman wrote:
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johnKeys wrote:
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grepman wrote:

PoE progression makes it a grind, you are moving at a snails pace to ward that asymptomic wall. you get to enjoy the grind and the surroundings, and the PROCESS


after thousands of hours of "enjoying the process", you begin to wonder: does this road even lead anywhere? what is at the end of it? why am I on it for so long, if I'm getting nowhere?
these are thoughts that sink in. thoughts that are strong enough to make some people quit.
and it's not just about time: it's also about effort, risk and skill. neither of which seem to really matter.

unless you get off that dirt road, and take the highway next to it.
Trade Interstate.
then you start to see things. then, you are no longer "enjoying the process" but actually getting somewhere.
so... why were you on that dirt road to begin with?

sure, but I can ignore the highway and grind the dirt road resiliently. I can also get on the highway if I want a better quality of life. it's a relevant choice.

personally, I enjoy spartan races. crawling on your fours half-dead to finish is always more fun and interesting than cruising to finish in an offroad vehicle

but regardless of what I choose, one thing I DEFINIETLY won't do is constantly glance at the highway as Im crawling the dirt road, and complain about it every 100 meters. when it was my choice to not use it.

its not a catch-22. those who don't want to get on the highway but also dont want to crawl the dirt road should probably do the one logical thing- stop. its not for them. its ok.


Reiterating my earlier point, that the dirt road is avoidable doesn't mean the dirt road is okay. It means it's so bad that people feel the need to avoid it at all costs.

I understand that the dirt road is slower than the highway, but that doesn't mean it needs to go several thousand miles in the wrong direction before maybe, maybe coming back around to where the highway goes.
Anuhart isn't human.
he is an instrument of putting probability to practical test.
and he has indeed proven probability works.

yay winning goal for "team RNG", right?
well no. because
a) most people would go insane, if they try to replicate what Anu does.
b) you'll probably want to take a look at his latest impressions of 2.0.
nothing can break his spirit, but the current iteration of RNG - specifically, map RNG - comes pretty damn close to it.

so I ask you the same question I asked RagnarokChu:
why is there a "team RNG"? what are you trying to prove/achieve?
why do you so automatically and so fiercely oppose every single proposal, that would take some control away from RNG, and put it in the hands of skilled players, while further encouraging even more skill?

and Scrotie is welcome to answer, as well.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
Last edited by johnKeys on Aug 26, 2015, 2:34:24 AM
When game becomes like a second job you surely know what to do with it.
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tm10067 wrote:
When game becomes like a second job you surely know what to do with it.


You uninstall and find a new one, correct. Not like people stick around for more than 1-2 months after new leagues anyways.
I just hate that I'm being punished by using currencies in this game anymore, it's just dumb that I can dumb my entire wealth into one item, and end up with an item 100 times worse than my placeholder item.
Participated in the working of the Dyadus Avatar of Fire Templar:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/896505
I don't see any reason why ARPG (Action Role Playing Game) have to be bonded with RNG just because few games in genre made it this way. There are many ARPG with constant progression as well.
Last edited by Langhun on Aug 26, 2015, 5:27:44 AM
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johnKeys wrote:
Anuhart isn't human.
he is an instrument of putting probability to practical test.
and he has indeed proven probability works.

yay winning goal for "team RNG", right?
well no. because
a) most people would go insane, if they try to replicate what Anu does.
b) you'll probably want to take a look at his latest impressions of 2.0.
nothing can break his spirit, but the current iteration of RNG - specifically, map RNG - comes pretty damn close to it.

so I ask you the same question I asked RagnarokChu:
why is there a "team RNG"? what are you trying to prove/achieve?
why do you so automatically and so fiercely oppose every single proposal, that would take some control away from RNG, and put it in the hands of skilled players, while further encouraging even more skill?

and Scrotie is welcome to answer, as well.


What is "team RNG", read my earlier post about everyone always devolving shit to "us vs them." Similarly either you are completely right or completely wrong about an opinion based subject to begin with.

Where did me, scrotie or anyone else who respond to your thread in a detailed and very noninflammatory manner "oppose every single proposal to take some control away from RNG + everything else." That is a wide sweeping comment that your making up in your head that we are against you or something or being hyperbolic about RNG this game. You categorized people into your "enemy group" and simply don't actually surely try to understand their feedback but constantly state your opinion and frustrated like people won't suddenly "get you."

I support skill gems being given to one, that completely makes the game more enjoyable for everyone with no downsides. I supported from the start stuff similar to master crafting and made threads about it. I supported no build creating unquie being ultra rare (like supporting the cheap version of shavs). There are ton of examples where I support completely unbiased good additions to the game that benefit all styles of play and further advance the game. I'm sure scrotie feels similar to me in those above regardless.

I've even asked you is master crafting enough for deterministic crafting, you have literally answered me back that it wasn't enough because you have to farm orbs to feed your 30 different characters you play at once and it sucks and it should be some sort of separate currency to master craft and this and that. (Completely biased in your personal agenda as oppose to taking it objectively on how it improved the game on it's previous version)

This game is a massive improvement other when it was released in many aspects in RNG, convenience and other factors. But the game adds something like master crafting but adds in aztiri which is 0.5% content in the game and is basically equal to ubers (farm keys, organs, ect ect) in D2 which everyone loved but suddenly it makes the game an terrible RNGfest? Hyperbolic a little? The only good suggestion I've seen was to change how we found pieces which GGG acknowledge they'll change. (Prob add it to mapping or some shit)


Rarely I see an actual proposal thought out thinking in consideration the original vision of the game and how to improve it for all people who play it.

Majority of people who post "Oh RNG makes PoE shitty" have sort of agenda that warps the game outside of the original vision. PoE is a market based game but we should change RNG to completely 100% ignore the market in everyday and make it obsolete.

No that's just warping the game to what you want it to be, not suggesting we improve PoE in what it strives to be. Outside of that it's people being extremely salty about their drop in games or something similar.

Then we have people who play like 300+ hours and complain they hit a wall because of "RNG." Despite ignoring the fact video games don't last forever and you usually stop playing them when you get bored. Unless we add more content to move the "hitting the wall point" down much much further (Think MMOs with many tiers of gear sets and the long leveling all the way to level cap) no amount of "RNG fixing" will fix hitting the "wall" problem. If we make it where you got 1 single mirror item every 200 hours, someone will complain that it should be 150 hours. Then someone will complain it is 100 hours, someone then will complain the time it takes to get 1 mirror item is longer then the length it takes to beat most video games and thus on.

Completely ignoring the fact at the end of the day, the game doesn't significantly become better at all if you farm the mirror item in 200 or 100 hours. It is the exact same shit and all you do is farming.

Provide why and how we should change this, provide something that makes the grind fun all the way to 200 hours. If we where going to 200 to 100 hours, does that actually improve game-play and how can we make that into a feature. I am all up for this type of discussion. For example the new ways you can craft that we recently found massively decreases the amount of time and currency a average person that can self craft a high-very high end item and makes all of those items much cheaper.

"RNG shouldn't be in ARPGs."

"lol there should be more risk vs reward."

"I should be able to find all the shit I need for my build."

Isn't a discussion at all or provides anything to improve the game.

Let me give you an example of a post if I was "team rng." Or posted similar to what many people do in this forum.

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Oh I think to improve the game because I love trading and MFing is that every account should have a pool of unquie that can only drop for them but massively boosted. This will improve trading because everyone will have alots of unquie other people want and we'll all trade each other for the exact item we want. I will also get alot of drops I want and trades in so It makes me happy.

Also all of the top players soloing to 100 by themselves on the leaderboard is broken since I like to party and take it slow. I think while we are in a party we should all drop our own stuff so we don't have to share drops and get our own map drops to be fair compared to solo play.

This game doesn't have more loot explosion slot RNG bosses. I think they should amp up bosses in this game where you fight many at a time and when I MF they all explode in alot of easy to get loot to get alterations to trade more.


Above is absurd but a good portion of people would like theses changes, does it make them right for the game though?

Personally I have 200%mf+ characters every leader but I vehemently hate the idea of MF and they should remove it from the game. PoE is never going to remove, but nor am I going to be salty about that basic fact. Now how do I figure out how to fix drop rates with the existence and serious effect of MF (Alot of people forget about this factor for some reason)
Last edited by RagnarokChu on Aug 26, 2015, 5:56:50 AM
lineage 2 had ridiculous droprates for even medioce uniques something like full armor the droprates of a full item were 1/30k or 1/5k ppl know those droprates and knew what to expect

now poe you make your 100s dried lake run and havent found 1 shitty voll card or you spend your whole 60-70s and havent found a pact card you feel cheated


just release the droptables and its fine i dont care if britle emporor has a 1/100000 i just want to know if its realistic to aim for them or not
https://poe-ssf.herokuapp.com/. Join the fun.
SSF HC Legacy Witch Lvl 53
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
Spoiler
@Elendarulianreo: from another thread
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
Here's some math you guys need to understand.

Let's say there's a large group of people in the room, and I give each of them a completely random number between 0 and 100 million. The average result in the room would be 50 million.

Now let's say I did it two more times (3 total), and all we cared about was whichever of each person's three random numbers was highest. The average result in the room would be 75 million.

Four times total? 80 million.
Nine times total? 90 million.
And so on. It follows the formula x/(x+1); first 1/2, then 2/3 with two times, 3/4 with three times, etc.

So, if you double drop rates, you go from a progression curve represented by the yellow line, to a progression curve represented by the blue line.


Thus, if you actually understand the math behind affix systems, you will realize no matter how you set the droprate endgame gear progression will inevitably slow to a grind, because the availability of affixes becomes static (that is, superior affixes do not become available).

The real droprate problem is that no droprate adjustment exists which will solve your problems.
Two things.

First, you incorrectly assume that the relative drop rates of items needs to be held constant. There's no reason the rarest items alone couldn't be made more common.
No, I'm assuming the drop rate for any particular affix remains constant from the beginning of the chart. I'm emphasizing affix systems because it sounds like you're talking uniques. Uniques have even worse progression: you have 'em, or you don't.
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Secondly, you're ignoring the actual time expectation to find those drops. I understand how aRPG progression works, that upgrades necessarily become less frequent as a function of time played.
This isn't necessarily true. The impact of upgrades necessarily decreases, but in ARPGs it is possible to have frequent but minor upgrades. This doesn't happen in PoE for most gear slots due to socket tax (it costs a small pile of Jewellers and Fusings to upgrade) so you do not see small upgrades in this game, forcing a low-frequency high-impact system.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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johnKeys wrote:
we've been over this a hundred times, Xav.
GGG aren't using a TRNG because it doesn't fit their use-case.
they want the odds to not be equal, and the RNG to not be "indistinguishable from TRNG". because that's how loot rarity tiers and modifier rolls work, for example.
so even if they had the extra cash to spend on a hardware RNG, it just wouldn't fit.
same goes for a hybrid.
so it is likely 100% software and 100% TRNG. for a reason.
no fallacy here.

and my complaint was never about TRNG or PRNG.
it was where that "Kuduku" gets shoved into, and which amount of control it gets.
the answer, is "everywhere" and "too much", respectively.


They aren't using TRNG because it's too expensive for their cause. Again, it has nothing to do with the odds. You use TRNG when you don't want to get sued by people who claim you are somehow rigging the game, that's why poker sites usually use TRNG as in a mix of quantal-RNG and other entropy sources. You can't expect GGG to use that, it would be kinda pointless to invest the money when PRNG is random enough for the cause.
GGG banning all political discussion shortly after getting acquired by China is a weird coincidence.

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