Why do people complain about RNG when you're playing an ARPG?
" You do realize that we are talking about PoE right? ~ Adapt, Improvise and Overcome
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" You also need to come up with something that explains the concept that alot of people do not understand. "The dream does not last forever." At some point in playing 100s of hours within the game, all is literally left is RNG and grinding. Content comes to a end, you'll find almost everything but the top tier items and by design the top tier items are supposed to be sparsely distributed between many people. You'll hit near max level or already hit max level and there is nothing else left to do in the game but get the 1% extra strength. I feel as though a large group of people who complain about RNG in PoE also are many people who played this game; 100, 200, 300 even thousand or more hours and then completely throw a temper tantrum that when they realize the dream is over; there's all the fun there is to be had. Even if they designed PoE within their wishes (ignoring people have different visions what would be perfect for them). The dream will end one day, you will get bored of them or move into the next biggest game. This is not a game you will be playing for the rest of your life, this isn't something you may be even playing for 2-3 years. Very few games you'll ever play in your life time will go past 5 years and god forbid a decade. Very few of us will even stick around for the 5 year point. What makes a great game is having as many people enjoy the game for the longest time possible, too many people I see in certain games have like 500 hours in game (CS:GO, a moba, MMOs, ect) and call it shit because they can't afford an mirror item or some other inner frustration. Somehow playing the game for so long they are a part of it, and being emotionally invested in what turns out to be a outcome of one of the many video games out there. Last edited by RagnarokChu on Aug 25, 2015, 11:59:59 PM
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" I'll share a secret with you no matter how you design a game about loot and grind, you will always, ALWAYS hit this wall after playing enough hours. content is not made out of rubber. RNG ensures the rate you hit that wall is spread out fairly. any adjustments to drops or RNG wont move the wall, it will jut change when YOU will reach this wall. and adjustments on 'fun' side (ie, moar drops for everyone yaaay wow such good) will only make you encounter this wall much, much earlier because you'll be progressing much faster. the wall itself is fairly static. the carrot on the stick still largely exists in PoE because of the RNG and T1 items being rare. PoE progression makes it a grind, you are moving at a snails pace to ward that asymptomic wall. you get to enjoy the grind and the surroundings, and the PROCESS a sped up progression will have you walloping to the same wall faster and then experiencing the same exact feeling when you get to it. " and its a shame too they gave in AGAIN. I couldn't believe my eyes - that patch sucked. People as usual cried their way to map changes. | |
"I thought the chart did that. Shortly after a character begins mapping, it stops being about progression. If your character is not already doing its thing by then it probably never will be. If you enjoy mapping with that character, then you'll still have fun; if you're just there for the loots you'll go mad. This is why I think it is such a bad idea to design map affixes as masochism-for-hire, where you suffer through some sadistic penalty for slightly more loot than if you didn't. Those are only fun from some kind of masochistic griefer perspective. The best map affixes to play aren't about difficulty, they are about variety and fun, because maps shouldn't be primarily about character progression, but about challenge progression, variety, and fun. Stuff like "all rares have Nemesis mods" and Totems and extra Rogue Exiles and extra Spirits (actually pretty much every Challenge League, but not as a Zana exclusive). The system should focus more on that and less on "risk-reward," which we will ruthlessly metagame to fuck anyway. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Aug 26, 2015, 1:14:01 AM
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" that's an interesting theory, but a false one. my computer is indeed a piece of shit, but 'thing is back in 1.3 I was playing characters that could kite. evade, both manually and not. took my Ranger to places I have never been to before (76+ maps. Poorjoys. Olmec's). defeated bosses I had no idea I could beat. Palace Dominus being a notable example. Shock And Horror. JW Weaver. Merveil... no CWDT. pure kiting with gear that's perhaps the best setup among all my characters, but isn't too good by any trade standards. I also had the pleasure of beating Atziri once, with my 2nd best char. a Cycloner who indeed had a CWDT setup and great mitigation - but needed to still kite in most of the fights. that was so much fun, it reminded me why I love the game. and I miss that, and accept the grim reality I'll probably never get there again, in 2.0+. why? in part because my computer is a piece of shit, while the requirements have gone up so considerably, even the good old "texture-quality = mud" trick no longer works. in conclusion: I've had enough of PoE's take on RNG, not because of technicalities. I've had enough of PoE's take on RNG, because of PoE's take on RNG. Elendarulianreo phrased it masterfully, but it seems neither you nor Grepman actually understood that post, so I really do suggest you read it again. Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat Shadow: That was fun Last edited by johnKeys on Aug 26, 2015, 1:33:19 AM
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" No, had you you would end up with a chart that weighs chances at reward/receiving rewards for the various strata they might belong to vs median hours to achieve the rewards also giving you a reasonable distribution of the percent of people willing to put in those hours vs the reward stratum. You could then assign some satisfaction value to a given character vs the number of hours they had in it before they quit and relate that to the chart I previously mentioned and have some cumulative effect over total time played. In that chart I think it would show that the longer a player plays a single character the increasingly dissatisfied they will become. You could then cumulate all their character's satisfaction data and extend this to a larger chart illustrating the player's career showing something like total dissatisfaction over total hours played vs number of characters with the lower the number of characters played the higher the dissatisfaction vs increasing total hours. There would probably need to be some total hours floor they would need to exceed for this to take effect as well. But ultimately this should give some mathematical credence to his idea that no matter how you play it would be possible to play so many hours you will inevitably become dissatisfied. Also this would give you a pretty good guess when most people would quit the game given some average expectation towards the reward structure.
Spoiler
Thought experiments are fun and sometimes produce word diarrhea! (and boredom does as well xD)
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" after thousands of hours of "enjoying the process", you begin to wonder: does this road even lead anywhere? what is at the end of it? why am I on it for so long, if I'm getting nowhere? these are thoughts that sink in. thoughts that are strong enough to make some people quit. and it's not just about time: it's also about effort, risk and skill. neither of which seem to really matter. unless you get off that dirt road, and take the highway next to it. Trade Interstate. then you start to see things. then, you are no longer "enjoying the process" but actually getting somewhere. so... why were you on that dirt road to begin with? " (a) except you probably won't. (b) supposed to, but actually are distributed between very few. who aren't necessarily good at navigating the above dirt road, but are absolute kings of Trade Interstate. so I really cannot bring myself to understand the point of pro-RNG posters like yourself. why are you so fiercely defending the current situation? Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat Shadow: That was fun Last edited by johnKeys on Aug 26, 2015, 2:05:43 AM
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" Two things. First, you incorrectly assume that the relative drop rates of items needs to be held constant. There's no reason the rarest items alone couldn't be made more common. Secondly, you're ignoring the actual time expectation to find those drops. I understand how aRPG progression works, that upgrades necessarily become less frequent as a function of time played. The problem, though, is that even players who play 8 hours a day can't have any expectation of finding any of the rarest items, let alone attempting to collect a number of them. That's why my post put things in terms of playtime. I said, for example, that I'd be okay with a T1 dropping every ~400 hours. Sure, theoretically I could reach a point where T1's are all that matter, so those 400 hours would become a serious grind, but that would be totally fine because I'd at least have gotten to experience the game's content in the form of finding at least a couple T1's. I'd probably quit and be satisfied, at least until more content is released, or roll more alts. |
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" sure, but I can ignore the highway and grind the dirt road resiliently. I can also get on the highway if I want a better quality of life. it's a relevant choice. personally, I enjoy spartan races. crawling on your fours half-dead to finish is always more fun and interesting than cruising to finish in an offroad vehicle but regardless of what I choose, one thing I DEFINIETLY won't do is constantly glance at the highway as Im crawling the dirt road, and complain about it every 100 meters. when it was my choice to not use it. its not a catch-22. those who don't want to get on the highway but also dont want to crawl the dirt road should probably do the one logical thing- stop. its not for them. its ok. | |
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also, your buddy "professor" Anuhart is a good proof that while walking for a loong loong time, you can get somewhere by always using a dirty road, even though now the road is filled with curses and signs badmouthing the highway
RNG and rarity isn't waiting for Godot. The more you play, the closer you get to better items/optimal builds, simply using probability theory; unless, of course, the bar is moved in terms what is great items/optimal build, which sometimes it is, but thats how GGG keeps the game relatively fresh for its biggest fans. |
