Give everyone 1 or 2 passive skill tree RESETS

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Mark_GGG wrote:

There will be limited partial respecs in the final game, this is covered in the beta manifesto (link in sig).
There will not be full respecs, unless changes to the tree after release are large enough that it becomes necessary.

see here is the major issue i am seeing all over this place lately, information.

the above dev quote is not new, its posted in many areas specifically the beta manifesto that people like me post links to over and over. yet here we are, in a thread full of posters who are willfully ignorant of these facts.

it has gotten to the point where its hard to discuss ANYTHING because we are not all working off the same set of FACTS. we can debate/discuss many things, but facts are facts and it seems like some of us are incorrectly assuming those we are discussing things with here are operating on the same info we have.

but they aren't. the above dev quote is proof of that when you have to continuously correct false assumptions and point people to the facts that we all have access to yet most seem to ignore.

not sure how to fix, wish there was a way to FORCE all testers to read that manifesto before they can even login to the beta forums :)

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scorpitron wrote:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

There will be limited partial respecs in the final game, this is covered in the beta manifesto (link in sig).
There will not be full respecs, unless changes to the tree after release are large enough that it becomes necessary.

see here is the major issue i am seeing all over this place lately, information.

the above dev quote is not new, its posted in many areas specifically the beta manifesto that people like me post links to over and over. yet here we are, in a thread full of posters who are willfully ignorant of these facts.

it has gotten to the point where its hard to discuss ANYTHING because we are not all working off the same set of FACTS. we can debate/discuss many things, but facts are facts and it seems like some of us are incorrectly assuming those we are discussing things with here are operating on the same info we have.

but they aren't. the above dev quote is proof of that when you have to continuously correct false assumptions and point people to the facts that we all have access to yet most seem to ignore.

not sure how to fix, wish there was a way to FORCE all testers to read that manifesto before they can even login to the beta forums :)

Thats all well and good, but I read that manifesto and when I tried to talk about things in it I got told it was out of date or this or that is done or no longer true... So maybe a more frequently updated manifesto for those of us that are newer. Plenty of us realize there will be a skill point refund currecny, but thats not really a viable way to test things especially if the there is changing meta game due to new content and tweaking of the skill tree. If GGG thinks we are vocal in beta wait until people have given them money. Derpfoot wouldn't just be taking some time off becuase his character was made useless by an update there would be a shitstorm of angry people that don't want to level up a new character to 80+ because they weren't able to test a patch change before commiting to it.

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Kizmet wrote:

Thats all well and good, but I read that manifesto and when I tried to talk about things in it I got told it was out of date or this or that is done or no longer true...

im calling your bluff, post links showing where you are asking about things in the manifesto but were told by GGG that is was out of date or invalid info.

I didn't say GGG said it was out of date. I'm almost positive it was an alpha tester. I will go look for the thread. I think it was about keystone passives not being mentioned at all in the manifesto.

First of all, I'd like to say my own opinion. I think whatever they decide is ok for, if they are not going to EVER give another skill point reset its ok, if there is going to be those that's cool too.

But, well... ok this is just an assumption but, many of you ppl have probably seen the not yet usable button that you have above your skill bar.. or near it.(you'd have to be blind to miss it really) The one that has dollar in it or something. Dunno if this has been asked about, or answered but wouldn't that be for a future cash store? If there is going to be store (they have already told that they will at least release patch that introduces social pets) then there are likely going to be all kina different items that give you different benefits.. the normal cra** like increased xp or something I guess... among them there might be a skill reset item too, that you pay to use and after you've used it its gone.

Oh and just to point out, I don't exactly like "micropayments" but its how many of mmog's do things nowadays... but I'm not looking forward to it.

now...Waiting for some1 to tell me that I'm wrong. The reson for that button?

I was in the middle of typing about that NekotaJiji. This is going to be a f2p game and they are going to monetize by micro payments of skins and pets and xp most like.

Alot of people seem to be thinking of this game as the same as D2. In that, you pay 50 bucks and play the loot slot machine till you get bored of it. Even GGG seems to have that sentiment in some odd cases(this being one). In most of their decisions you can see them establishing the framework for a F2P game with a decent sized healthy community that gives them money and a huge leacher base to feed the people that pay, and ensure a healthy in-game economy. The only way I can see no free respecs fitting into this situation is if GGG charges money for respecs. They might not strait up charge for respecs, possibly they will sell "GGG points" that can be turned into any currency items in game(respec being one of them), but a game this complex that lives or dies by its end game community(casuals are important, but they are more likely to be leachers), has to have ways for you to easily and quickly try new builds/skills/changes or you are going to bleed userbase left and right after every single update. Every single game in the last 10 years since D2(and recently including D2) in this genre or any similiar genre (high complexity with pvp) has had respecs for a reason. This could also be fixed super easily for everyone with a leauge for people that don't want respec. Make Hard Core REALLY Hard Core and don't punish the entire rest of your user base with something that is not fun. I do agree with Whiteboy in that we aren't going to change GGG's stance on the issue, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it or that we should defend GGG for a bad decision.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

We are NOT going to be selling anything for real money that give an in-game advantage. This is covered in the FAQ, which you can find on the upper left. We will not sell XP, nor items which benefit your character. We will not sell respecs.

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Kizmet wrote:

The only way I can see no free respecs fitting into this situation is if GGG charges money for respecs.

Partial respecs are planned, and will be available to everyone for free. Full respecs are not, because if you want to play another character, you're encouraged to actually play another character. This is covered in more detail in the Beta Manifesto. It will be possible to fully respec a character if they're prepared to find/trade for enough of the respec currency item.

Thanks for responding Mark and laying that fear to rest I know lots of f2p say no advantage, but they have all tended to slide things like xp boost around that. I'm not too happy about that descision, but I am very interested to see how it turns out, and wether it hurts or helps the health of game. I am much more drawn to these types of games for the build/test aspect rather than "topped out this guy lets start another" but I have to agree the people I know that ARE like that would/will be better customers for you than I will ^_^

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Yes, seriously.

You are fantastic at distorting entire arguments by latching onto a single point and ignoring the rest of the post. That is where the "seriously?" came from.

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GGG won't have an epiphany when they read this thread (or the numerous other ones like it) that will change their view on the topic. They're not going to give us respecs on demand, even if it has its merits. They don't want beta testers changing builds on a whim. They have said this numerous times. Arguing among ourselves (and insulting) won't make it happen, for sure.

The people of GGG are neither omniscient nor omnipotent. If they could easily consider every aspect of the situation/argument at hand at will, they wouldn't need bloody beta testers or their feedback.

If all we do is submit swarms of opinion pieces without allowing those opinions to come under the scrutiny of peer review through debate, our feedback might as well be replaced with voting polls. If you are responding to the feedback of others with criticisms with the intention to dismiss their opinion entirely, address the arguments in full so the feedback grows stronger in some form; whenever by being thoroughly deconstructed or strengthened through a subsequent defense by the OP.

Saying "lol nothing will change so stop" or doing these insulting strawmans IS NOT CONSTRUCTIVE.

It is irrelevant whenever they renege on their stance entirely or not at all or somewhere in between. What is relevant is that if they encounter something, anything new among the feedback that allows them to improve the game; regardless of what form that improvement takes.

Here here Konfeta! Good points and more eloquently than I could have put it. I've agreed with you pretty much everywhere I've seen you on this board. Keep up the good work.