Compilation of melee / east side of the tree issues
" Yes, I realized this, and that's why I wanted to use frost blades. But the gimmicky 180 degree thing it has is really, really annoying. I guess I'll have to deal with it. But again, I couldn't care less about my build. I still want to do an auramancer tho, and some kind of dual wield melee has always appealed to me, it's fun, too. All classes are, indeed, capable of getting life. However the argument is that with the new update, you must now invest a lot more into everything you use (evasion, es, leech...) for very little payoff until you actually get huge amounts of it (the exception to this is armor, which has instant payoff). On top of this, evasion requires an insanely large life pool. Evasion is in the part of the tree with the 4th least life. Armor, on the other hand, is in the part of the tree with the most life. That's why it's so easy to go maurauder/templar armor builds. | |
" You also seem to neglect the distance each class has from life nodes, tho. Attribute points are, unless needed, "wasted" points. No one will ever complain about getting extra strength attribute points tho, because it gives hp, something useful for every class. However agility (incr. evasion and acc.) and int (incr. % es and mana) are much worse bonuses than strength is. Not to mention the strength you get is multiplied by even more life nodes since that side of the tree has more. You can't say the same for evasion or energy shield because pretty much nothing in the tree gives you raw +100 eva or es (except the scion wheels). " Yup, the nerf on Ondar's was needed, it was just a free buff. The keystone itself still remains very boring tho, and not worth taking in any case, so the change is just as bad. And I share the same opinion with sjaka, you don't have options. In the shadow area, you have two choices, ranger hp or scion life wheel (witch is way too far away). In the ranger area, you can pick up 1 amazing node in the shadow area, and duelist, and the scion life wheel. So ranger is quite okay compared to shadow. Now compare that to the templar. He has the option to go take the many great life nodes he has "for free" in his side of the tree, or move towards the maurauder, or to the scion life wheel. You should try out looking at the tree, typing "% increased maximum life" and watching how spread out the life nodes are on the agi side of the tree compared to the strength side. The agi side makes you travel through plenty of attribute nodes, whereas the strength side lets you path through several options whilst barely touching any long chains of attri nodes. As always, add to this the many other nerfs to the agi side. It's not just one thing, it's that agi builds already were a bit weak (compared to str), and they just got nerfed in the worst possible spots. " I agree with this, armor is by far superior in terms of survivability. Evasion has to be coupled with life, of you're just dead. Energy has to be coupled with some other kind of mitigation, period. On top of it, if you're melee, you have to invest a little bit (let's not forget the nerf on leech, tho) on regenerating it with lifesteal or regen. Evasion + energy shield still keeps the same problems as both. However, ES + armor is good, if you get a way to regen it. Armor was already better IMO, now it's very clear that it's much, muuuch better. " The difference is way too big if mob damage and defenses stay as they are for sure. " And by "easily" you mean taking every single possible node, leaving none nearby... alright. Of course you can get 175% (altough it is not easy), but any other class has a much easier time doing so, with much more points to spare. The east side of the tree (mainly shadow) is just worse than other areas in terms of survivability, and by a large margin. It's fine until you go melee, at least. Last edited by ZeroZ30o on Jul 29, 2015, 5:56:34 PM
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90 skillpoints left, full lifewheel taken.
And there's even some interesting nodes next to this path, like "Harrier", "True Strike", "From the Shadows". Travel cost: 8 skillpoints (of +10 attribute, the rest is all useful stuff), and I didn't even take the shortest path. It's just not as horrible as you are trying to make it. As a Marauder, you're also usually spending 3-4 travel cost to get there, either via the Marauder/Templar or Marauder/Duelist connections. So the difference between Shadow and Marauder is about "3-5 skillpoints". And the Scion life wheel is the only serious difference in life per point efficiency, as there's no more travel cost once you get there, and one of the biggest health nodes of the tree is inside it. 3.5 build: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2299519
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" What about evasion being a much worse stat? What about dex being a lot worse than str? |
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Str is not better than dex. It is different.
Evasion is not 'crap' it is different. In most cases it is the build that fails. Not the mechanic behind it | |
" No, str and armor are better. Having played both I am speaking from experience. I doubt you have played a shadow based melee evasion character in 2.0 otherwise you would not be saying so. Damage is much spiker this patch, hp pools can not get large enough to compensate for evasion tanks resulting in a lot more one shot senarios. The core mechanic of armor reducing damage works much better. Str increasing hp pools even further works much better than accuracy. Str based charters can just pick up one quick easy keystone making the need of accuracy irrelevant. There are clear advantages to armor tanks and clear disadvantages to evasion tanks. It is not balanced well. Last edited by blightedmythoss on Jul 30, 2015, 7:15:55 AM
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I guess it is up to the build and gameplay style. My ev melee chars do quite well. Maybe it is a build issue?
I cannot check your chars (im on a phone) but seeing your highest is 74 while mine ev melee chars are 88.. i think it is more of a build issue/error than evasion being 'crap'. Each time i see people presenting quick and one-sided 'ansewers' i get suspicious if these people actually gave it a fair shot. Or maybe they follow some 'meta' theories.. | |
" This is coming from someone who has only built characters in the evasion side of the tree for about 370 hours. The rest of my ~35 hours were spent trying out strength builds, and I can tell you for a fact that it is much easier and superior. Edit: obviously this is mostly before the patch, and before the patch I'd say the two were more or less in the same spot. In 2.0, armor just wins the cake against the huge spikes of damage. I am not defending my builds, and I have never claimed to say my builds were good by any means. I am still a very average player looking to get better, but the leveling process for melee characters with evasion and/or energy shield is just shit, at least compared to armor chars. I've created/deleted about 30 chars in my whole time of playing PoE, and while I don't have as much insight into end game content, I'd say I have nearly as much experience in the level 1 - level 60 level process as more experienced players. Don't take my word for it, just try it yourself. Again, my point here is not the end result, the end result is fine. Edit: It's not fine for players who relied on leech as a main mechanic tho. My point is that armor gives an instant payoff, increasing effective HP, whereas evasion doesn't increase EHP if you get one/two-shot - what this means is that, unless you also invest in HP, you are going to get killed. With armor, as I said, it increases your effective HP, basically armor is "extra health against physical damage", just like elemental resistances are. Evasion isn't like that. Energy shield is, but it doesn't regen if you're melee, and I've seen many threads (around 5 or more in 2 days) complaining about how their 7k ES / CI characters can't leech anymore due to how badly the life leech gem got nerfed. Last edited by ZeroZ30o on Jul 30, 2015, 8:09:09 AM
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"my point is that armor gives an instant payoff, increasing effective HP, whereas evasion doesn't increase EHP if you get one/two-shot - what this means is that, unless you also invest in HP, you are going to get killed." Just a couple months ago, the main complaint in this forum was the other way around: "armor does nothing against big Hits. So it's useless since it protects only when you don't need it. Evasion on the other hand protects against anything, even elemental attacks." Same with RT. Was considered useless as well compared to crit. Get your 5-6k life up, no matter what type of defense you want to run, and don't overspend on offense when you cant handle it... and youll do fine. Main issue of most fail builds is lack of life and defense investment. All those shiny dps nodes... Cant take them all. 3.5 build: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2299519
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" Just a couple months ago, you didn't get two shotted by pretty much any mob packs, even tho you've taken all possible life nodes on your char according to your level, with ~2 rare items with hp + 2 coral rings, with good resistances and values on them. This doesn't happen with armor. The problem is in the PATH to getting that 6k hp, you get owned, even with good gear. Don't just quote some lines out of context, some of my statements don't hold when you go past level 70-75. Life leech still holds up there tho, seeing as everyone agrees that ES got destroyed by the nerfs. And, even if, yes, evasion is good at later times, armor is much more reliable due to its less RNG nature. And also, you're probably aware, but the more damage the hit does, the more your armor is actually effective (every point of armor "blocks more" the harder the hit). So armor really doesn't have an excuse, unless it's too hard to get it, and I don't have experience in that pre 2.0. From what I've seen in 2.0 however, and that I've also seen many people here agree with, is that armor is superior to evasion. |
