[2.0] Rathik's Shotgunless Barrage COC. New build. Much stronger now. Boss killer.

"
Artificed wrote:
Thought I would just post my thoughts and progress with the build.

First of all here is my gear (it is not great, I am poor and on warbands):
Spoiler


As you can see I am using a Tabula Rasa and I have to say it works fine, you just don't get life leech like you would with a 6l Voll's and you just get power charges a little bit slower.

The only problem I was having with this build was survivability. I started using Herald of Thunder + Curse on Hit + Warlord's Mark, and got a cold Doryani's Invitation once I hit level 68 + vaal pact, with all that plus acro + phase acro I don't die very often, usually just from a really nasty mob every now and then.

My damage is amazing with Glacial Cascade + EK + Arc, and my AoE + Clear with GMP + Freezing Pulse + Arc is great.
All in all this build is completely doable with Tabula and not great gear!

If you have tips for me please reply to me and if I find some more tips I will post here!


Nice, is great to see someone trying to the build with no currency on new leagues.
As for tips, you don't seem to need any, all I can say is get better gear but that's not helpful since you already know that :).

Good job man.
IGN Riokar | My guides
[2.0]Non legacy Mjölner. Uber down. -thread/1474288
[2.0]Shatter Chuck Lite COC -thread/1324981
[2.0]SRS Magic Find Culler. Uber capable. /w budged build -thread/1406603
[2.0]NEWBIE MF/DPS Summoner -thread/479976 | Power leveling guide -thread/522556
"
Artificed wrote:
Thought I would just post my thoughts and progress with the build.

First of all here is my gear (it is not great, I am poor and on warbands):
Spoiler


As you can see I am using a Tabula Rasa and I have to say it works fine, you just don't get life leech like you would with a 6l Voll's and you just get power charges a little bit slower.My damage is amazing with Glacial Cascade + EK + Arc, and my AoE + Clear with GMP + Freezing Pulse + Arc is great.
All in all this build is completely doable with Tabula and not great gear!

If you have tips for me please tell me!


(I cut out some of your post just to make it easier to link with mine)

How is your damage and kill speed on bosses with a 6l Tabula? I'm using a 5L Voll's and it's working pretty great for trash with EK + Arc + life leech but bosses take a while to kill (I think I fell asleep on cruel malachai because it was taking so long). Only level 65 now so my purity of fire is too low level to allow me to run RF for bosses. I'm debating buying a Tabula or buy a second Voll's and try to 6l that one so I'm not stuck without a 5l in between but being on Warbands I have very little currency so it will take a while.

gear for reference
Spoiler
if you dont mind i whould write all stuff here
right now trying out coc
before i played only phys build so even self caster s for me seems wierd :D

as a tip for starters that never try out coc before my tips
1 dont try to rush it early(45-50 lvles already whould be fine) just for reason low lvl coc gem doest feel any good cos of low proc rate
2 when you finally got coc craft all utility flasks you need they whould totaly resolve all problems with defence till maps
3 another main atvantage of non discharge build that you may have 6l non voll armour that propaly whould have for example 1500 eva and thats huge or even es variant
i used frenzy coc elem+curse
but you also may have frenzy pcoc coc elem and put curse in 6l
cos charge duration is about 15s and there no need to update them THAT fast as voll`s does
(on higher lvles proc rate higher so thats more viable)
4 and about dps
i killed piety on cruel even before she got first transformation so better think about your thoughness if you playing hc
5 if you care about long range pack clearing the best way just put chain instead of fs(firestorm)with my setup (barrage coc pcoc chain ek ark) that whould provide insane amount of procs and crazy aoe dmg with ek

"
Railune wrote:
"
For barrage the experts say that the magic number is 2.3 APS.
if you use gmp its <2.3aps and <3aps if not


It seems to me there is a flaw in these calculations. Because CoC does not trigger 100%, according to wiki it is 70%. So if you have 100% crit chance with wand (with power charges), with GMP (8 shots per barrage) it is 20/(0.7*8) = 3.57 aps and without GMP (4 shots) it is 20/(0.7*4) = 7.14 aps.
20 is maximum nuber of triggers per second (since there is 0.05 sec cooldown)

Also, I do not see the 100% wand crit chance on currently posted gear\passives, so it looks like 3.57 goes even higher.

Please correct me if my calculations are wrong


Mechanics https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1211122
Spoiler

Critical Stirkes
Spoiler

Accuracy - This is one of your most important stats. The % value you see is the average chance for you to hit a mob of the same level based on your accuracy and the mobs evasion. The more accuracy you have the higher % chance you have to hit mobs. You can find out more here. In other words if you don't hit the mob then you don't even have a chance to cast any of your spells. In additional it plays a second role in landing a critical strike.
Critical Stirke Chance - Another key component of CoC is your critical strike chance with barrage, because you only have a chance to cast if you crit. Critical strikes are determined right when you attack. If you successfully get a crit roll you have to pass an additional accuracy roll to see if your crit is evaded. If you pass this roll you land a critical strike, otherwise it is just a normal hit.
How does all this work together?

Chance to Crit = (Chance to hit) * (Crit Chance) * (Accuracy roll to score critical) = (Crit Chance)(Accuracy)^2

As you can see accuracy plays a huge role in your chance to score a critical hit.

Let's pretend you have a 90% chance to hit and a 80% crit chance. What is your real chance to crit?
(.8)(.9)^2 = 64.8%
Now lets pretend you skimped on your accuracy and you now have 85% how does that affect your chance to crit?
(.8)(.85)^2 = 57.8%
So you lost 7% chance to crit!


Cast on Critical Gem and Barrage
Spoiler

In patch 1.3 CoC got a pretty big nerf. The internal CD for spells to be cast was changed from .01s to .05s. This is very important for barrage, because it shoots between 4-8 projectiles depending on whether it's linked to GMP or not. All projectiles are evenly spaced and if they are not spaced more then .05s then you can lose out on possible CoC procs. This spacing is dependent on your attack speed. Let me give you a few examples.

Example 1: Let's say your barrage projectiles hit .051s apart.
T0: You proc CoC T0.051: You proc Coc T0.102: You proc CoC (So in theory all your barrage hits could cause a cast)

Example 2: Let's say you increased your attack speed and now your barrage projectiles hit .045s apart
T0: You proc Coc T0.045: You can't proc Coc, because .05s internal CD T0.09: You proc CoC T:0.135: You can't proc CoC, because of internal CD
As you can see with projectiles 0.045s apart you can only proc CoC every other attack and the min time between possible procs is 0.09s.

So in example 1 all of your attacks could proc CoC, but in example 2 only half of them could. You are probably wondering if there is a point for an attack speed that decreases your barrage spacing to be less then .05s. The answer to this is yes, if you get it just over 0.05s/n (n=2, 3, 4) you won't miss out on possible CoC procs.

Example 3: Your barrage projectiles hit every 0.026s
T0:You proc CoC T0.026: You can't proc CoC T0.052: You can proc T0.078: You can proc if T0.052 didn't proc
Because CoC only has a 70% chance of procing at lvl 21 hitting more frequently has it's benefits as long as the time between chances to proc aren't to long.

This means there are optimal attacks speeds for barrage. Because of how barrage works the optimal speeds vary based the number of projectiles fired.

So what are these breakpoints?

Base Barrage w/no LMP or GMP
<3.0 APS

Barrage w/GMP
<=2.2 APS (the breakpoint lies between 2.2 and 2.3 APS)
<=4.4/4.5 APS

To test whether you have a bad breakpoint link: Barrage - CoC - GMP - Lvl 1 SRS. If you can't spawn more then 4 SRS minions in one barrage then you need to reduce or increase your attack speed to get to the proper breakpoint.

Being slightly below the breakpoints also has it advantages. If a mob is moving towards you the projectiles will hit closer together thus possibly causing you to dip below the 0.05s frequency, but overall it should not be an issue you worry about.

Let's hope this all made sense.

More math and stuff continue in the wand section...



i just die on hc and that was totaly my bad
and propably any other guy with some exp with coc whouldnt die
(even in last patch i used inc dur lightning warp to get out of range on box opening
so that was totaly my bad ;,<)
but all my thoughts right now are
1 main source of danger is chaose range dmg
so you can split it to range and chaos(if you have no chaos res obviously)
and another one ofc spells like flameblast still maybe dangerious if you dont react properly

also i watched vid guy from sc doing uber atziri die randomly to also to range chaos attacks so i think thats not just me

2 at that moment i was lvl 70 and was thinking about where to lvl up to 76 in aqua or dried lake
so i choose second and that was my mistake
range mobs deal huge amount of dmg compare to anything else in both locations
but i die to rare snakes that come out from strongbox and killed me literally in 1 sec
i just opened box tp out and die in process
so i didnt pop armor flasks and cwdt didnt proc at all for some reason idk really

my build atm
Spoiler
https://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAwAAA5YEBwceDdEOSA-rEZYWvxqBIG4kiyaVKgstHzGeNZI2PTpYOuE7KEGWSVFKyEtXTLNN41AwUXRVS1XGXfJfsGBDYeJirGNDZJ1sjG1sbj1uqm-ecFJw1XcHf8aC5IMJg9uHE4nTiq-MC4w2j_qQEZUglS6btZyknaqio6ZXppmus7VItfK5fL6AvrzA48HzwzrKStD12L3bXuv17LDw1fGz8h3yRfPq_gr-jw==

and gear
Spoiler

so as spells i use barrage coc pcoc ark ek fs with RF thats about 150k aoe dps thats huge
last char i plyed was mara with cyclone you know this shit and at the top aoe dmg was about 40k
with same armour (if you count flasks) and 6k vs 4k hp
also my bad in gear was that when i change uniq amu i should get cold res+ acc and add acc to rings
so that whould totaly resolve all problems with acc on that levels

also RF not that important obviously it adds ton of dmg but on hc thats a bit scary to play it without 99% fire res and hp regen

another thing that i thought
main problem of this build is crit acc as caps so you obviously can add some spell damage but
if you really care about damage you should go to double voll`s and discharge
i checked out possible variant and thats okay to have 6/6 power/endu charges with 250% hp and same ~90% crit chance

about wand vs dagger question
cyclone cost is huge but main thing that makes dagger better it MAY have vagan`s affix *enemy cant evade
as you already know first of all you hit for example 95% hit ratio then you should roll crit for same 95% and hit rate again to land crit so propably acc more important then crit itself if youalready have 80+crit rate
im not sure yet whould i do dagger wariant or not but thats intresting
also if you dont care about discharge i used ark fs and ek as i told but if it possible thats better to change ek to smth else just for range purpose
i mean y sure that whould lower dps but you whould have all range skills and thats huge atvantage

RIP English :D
GMT +4
Last edited by ugrolol on Jul 28, 2015, 12:07:55 PM
"
Namcap wrote:
"
Artificed wrote:
Thought I would just post my thoughts and progress with the build.

First of all here is my gear (it is not great, I am poor and on warbands):
Spoiler


As you can see I am using a Tabula Rasa and I have to say it works fine, you just don't get life leech like you would with a 6l Voll's and you just get power charges a little bit slower.My damage is amazing with Glacial Cascade + EK + Arc, and my AoE + Clear with GMP + Freezing Pulse + Arc is great.
All in all this build is completely doable with Tabula and not great gear!

If you have tips for me please tell me!


(I cut out some of your post just to make it easier to link with mine)

How is your damage and kill speed on bosses with a 6l Tabula? I'm using a 5L Voll's and it's working pretty great for trash with EK + Arc + life leech but bosses take a while to kill (I think I fell asleep on cruel malachai because it was taking so long). Only level 65 now so my purity of fire is too low level to allow me to run RF for bosses. I'm debating buying a Tabula or buy a second Voll's and try to 6l that one so I'm not stuck without a 5l in between but being on Warbands I have very little currency so it will take a while.

gear for reference
Spoiler


My clear/kill speed didn't change with Voll's it just makes you get those first power charges a bit quicker.
I kill bosses fine on both Voll's and Tabula, I do not use RF yet. Maybe try EK + Arc + Glacial Cascade, I see you have curse on hit + assassins mark so you should be fine with sustain, if not try to get an Atziri's Promise - 1c and maybe even a Doryani's Invitation with whatever damage type you do the most of if you have the currency, I got my cold variant for 5c.

Also if you can afford to try to get rid of Ungil's Harmony if you are at mapping level, my amulet doesn't give me anything for offence, but as long as your crit chance for Barrage is something like 50% with no power charges and no Ungil's Harmony I think your damage should go up -100% Global Crit Chance is a bunch.
My amulet:

Also if you can afford to, try to get more offensive stats on your rings, since you can't use RF yet just level purity of fire and use purity of elements.
My rings:

Just try getting good accuracy, 28%+ Global Crit Chance, and life. If you do get rings like mine once you want to use purity of fire + rf you will need to get new rings unless you have lots of resists on other gear so don't get rings like mine if you don't want to spend more currency on better ones later.


Edit: You do not even need to regal your amulet, I just use mine for the -6 mana cost to skills. Also I said all that up there you can buy, but if that will spend all your currency don't do it, you really don't need all that stuff to make the build work it just makes it easier :). If you already have a Tabula try using it with Barrage + CoC + Assassin's Mark + Glacial Cascade + EK + Arc and see what you think of it.

My favorite setup so far with Tabula is Barrage + CoC + Assassin's Mark + Freezing Pulse + Arc + GMP, that is a great setup for clearing maps, and on some bosses that is enough damage, but on others I switch to the glacial cascade setup :)

For anyone else reading this, I would not suggest buying a 5link Voll's for the build, I really think the build is only better with a Voll's instead of a Tabula if the Voll's is 6linked, because you lose out on survivability without Assassin's Mark in the setup if you use a 5l Voll's.
Last edited by Artificed on Jul 28, 2015, 2:08:21 PM
Since it's Warbands and not standard I had to choose what to go for with the little currency I had. I bought the 5s Voll's for 1c and was lucky enough to 5l in 10fuses. The wand cost me 1c and starkonja 2alc. Rest is self found (initially I played an Ice Crash marauder but I hated every second of it and rerolled to this by level 70). The amulet hurts for crit multi but I've literally found only 3 rare amulets in the last 40 levels and not one had any life or resists (so no reason to equip at all). If I remember correctly I'm at 48% crit chance without power charges so losing Ungil's is also rough for now. I don't have Elreon yet in my hideout so I don't have access to the -mana amulet (currently EB with +3es jewel for sustain). I'll try to find some crit rings that aren't too expensive since I still have pretty much no currency.

Anyways, all this to say, my single target damage on bosses feels low. I might try to switch life leech for glacial cascade but not convinced it will work.
"
Namcap wrote:
and was lucky enough to 5l in 10fuses.

really lucky xD
i spend about 12 fuses to get 4l on helm that was retarded

try ek cascade flame surge
or ek firestorm flame surge like i did
arc not that good for single target at all
RIP English :D
GMT +4
Last edited by ugrolol on Jul 28, 2015, 6:46:53 PM
"
ugrolol wrote:
arc not that good for single target at all

It does good damage and shocks, so it's worth using imo.
"
How is your damage and kill speed on bosses with a 6l Tabula? I'm using a 5L Voll's and it's working pretty great for trash with EK + Arc + life leech but bosses take a while to kill (I think I fell asleep on cruel malachai because it was taking so long). Only level 65 now so my purity of fire is too low level to allow me to run RF for bosses.

i just tryed out for test purpose to kill mal on cruel
http://www.twitch.tv/ugropnz/v/8881943
71lvl (i didnt even spend passive points after lvl 65 so should be about the same
and also phoenix shield useable from lvl 65)
maybe +1 or 2 lvl in skills but hey mal have 205k hp organs in 2nd fase have 45k each
and i have 60k dps single target with RF
so thats pretty legit even without RF and lower skill levels that should be around 30k AT least
you can check out my gear and passives in my post above

ps didnt even notice at the start that using RF xD
RIP English :D
GMT +4
"
ugrolol wrote:

i just tryed out for test purpose to kill mal on cruel
http://www.twitch.tv/ugropnz/v/8881943
71lvl (i didnt even spend passive points after lvl 65 so should be about the same
and also phoenix shield useable from lvl 65)
maybe +1 or 2 lvl in skills but hey mal have 205k hp organs in 2nd fase have 45k each
and i have 60k dps single target with RF
so thats pretty legit even without RF and lower skill levels that should be around 30k AT least
you can check out my gear and passives in my post above

ps didnt even notice at the start that using RF xD

Wow great kill, I will have to try EK + Firestorm + Flame surge.
I am uploading a video comparing clear with Voll's/Tabula so I will post that here when it is uploaded.
Last edited by Artificed on Jul 28, 2015, 7:20:20 PM
about all this *dps and hps and stuff i posted
poehud itself
full window capture much laggy then game only so...
if you really intrested in correct numbers and etc and dont mind be banned for no real reason
then you can check out first how it looks like
http://www.twitch.tv/ugropnz/v/8883577
mal on 3 40

right now after death i really thinking about what to do with coc build
i mean there a lot things what you can do but still
reality shows that its not true

also i checked out wand with barrage have 80% more procs/sec then dagger with cyclone even with
90%vs100 hit ratio just cos
and you can put gmp for 2x procs if you need it(+48% dps on lvl 20 vs single target)
or conc effect for single target thats provide 59% but 25less aoe for 140% mana multiplier vs 165
so thats all intresting but idk really
and even dont know why ppl have no any theorycraft about coc
RIP English :D
GMT +4
Last edited by ugrolol on Jul 28, 2015, 8:23:45 PM

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