Crossbow and gun

that's really cool idea! can GGG see this?

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PHRandom wrote:

Man, i would reject guns in this game...
However crossbows are worthy.

Two types of crossbow:
1- Cho-ko-nu, aka chinese crossbow, faster than longbows but with less damage per hit
2- Crossbow, aka european crossbow, slower than crossbows but with more damage per hit

They could fit role as Duelist weapon for Crossbow and as Shadow weapon for Cho-ko-nu.
Both have DEX, but one is STR/DEX and other is DEX/INT.

Fun fact: crossbow is also a type of bow, so no need for change passive tree because of it.

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tsftd wrote:

really, my response then would be "is it worth a major overhaul of the skill tree and a major patch overall for something that would have such a minor effect on the game?" Apparently, the opinion of most of the people posting in this thread would be "yes", and mine would be "no" -- at least insofaras the current suggestions go.

on the other hand, the whip thread that forked out of here at least has some interesting ideas -- not sure if they're ultimately viable, but some new and interesting theorycrafting is coming out of it. so I remain positively disposed to the possibility that someone may come up with some concrete ideas which would make crossbows worth pursuing (IMO).

There is a difference between pistols and xbows or scythes and spears.

Pistols would basically use the same skills and many of the passivs that wands use. There would be some changes necessary, but not too many. Xbows would basically use bow passivs.

Also I think the reason why Xbows in general are often associated with higher Strength requirements is their high weight. Crossbows are really heavy compared to normal bows even though it is easier to fire them you still have to hold them at the target which is depending of the type of crossbow not easy. The interesting thing about this also is that while fore the crossbow your strength determines the accuracy of the crossbow, for a regular bow it determines the firepower and drawspeed.

Clearly we need a happy medium.

Crossbows - are just bows that a peasant can use to kill a king. 0 training. point and click.

Guns - are just a laughably easier concept of crossbows.

My suggestion.... Javelins.

Yes, I admit.... this is partially driven by my desire for Javelins to be useful (damn you Runescape) I digress.

Javelins are a strength based ranged weapon. which would suitably fill in the missing niche.

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Emphasy wrote:

Pistols would basically use the same skills and many of the passivs that wands use. There would be some changes necessary, but not too many. Xbows would basically use bow passivs.

Then what are pistols bringing to the game? If they use the wand passives and skills, why not just make a pistol MTX? Same thing with crossbows.

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Emphasy wrote:

Also I think the reason why Xbows in general are often associated with higher Strength requirements is their high weight. Crossbows are really heavy compared to normal bows even though it is easier to fire them you still have to hold them at the target which is depending of the type of crossbow not easy. The interesting thing about this also is that while fore the crossbow your strength determines the accuracy of the crossbow, for a regular bow it determines the firepower and drawspeed.

Historically, this isn't accurate at all. Bows, especially longbows and warbows, required far more strength to use. At the time that they were used in warfare, longbows/warbows required massive strength to pull, while crossbows (though using higher pull weight) used significant mechanical advantage to reduce the strength requirement.

There are a whole slew of details regarding training, usefulness, methods, etc, but the general rule of thumb is that your average medieval peasant could pick up and use a (combat) crossbow with ease, while they couldn't even shoot a (combat) bow due to the draw strength requirements.

As for weight, even the heaviest crossbows only weighed 20kg, but most weighed far less. The heavy crossbows were effectively portable light siege weapons, which were fired while braced and reloaded on the ground (often having an assistant or 3-man crew).

If you want to use strength as the stat requirement for crossbows and dexterity for bows as a game mechanic, that's fine -- but it isn't rooted in any historical or real-world reason. Also, it's pretty much what Iron Grip already does. So again, just make a crossbow MTX for bows and take Iron Grip.

I would say that you could exploit the different range characteristics to make crossbows deal higher damage at a closer range, but that's already fulfilled by Point Blank (and Shrapnel Shot).

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Clearly we need a happy medium.

Crossbows - are just bows that a peasant can use to kill a king. 0 training. point and click.

Guns - are just a laughably easier concept of crossbows.

My suggestion.... Javelins.

Yes, I admit.... this is partially driven by my desire for Javelins to be useful (damn you Runescape) I digress.

Javelins are a strength based ranged weapon. which would suitably fill in the missing niche.

First of all, while the appeal of crossbows is that a peasant *can* use them, they couldn't use them *well*. The idea that crossbows require little to no training to be effective with them is a common misconception. Much like guns, they require little to no training to *use*, but massive training to be used well. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoese_crossbowmen for an example of an elite, highly-trained crossbow unit which competed against both English longbows and early gunpowder weapons.

As for javelins, again we are crowding the design space of Iron Grip. Why not just make a javelin MTX?

On a side note, one reason that javelins may not see much love in games is that historically, with the exception of African tribal warfare in certain time periods (which was highly ritualized), javelins were almost exclusively used as either a skirmishing weapon or a closing weapon, and not as a primary weapon for line fighters.

There are a number of reasons for it, but the simplest is matters of ammunition -- arrows, stones, and bolts are (comparatively) cheap, easy and quick to make, and can be carried in much larger numbers.

Now, if you wanted to design it so that it was, say, a ranged weapon with a cooldown, then that would both make sense and offer something new design-wise.

I mean , they have mines and corpse explosions. Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to make a gun...lore wise.

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Xtorma wrote:

I mean , they have mines and corpse explosions. Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to make a gun...lore wise.

Agreed, but I'm on the opposite side, didn't really understood mines in PoE lorewise...

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commandment6 wrote:

My suggestion.... Javelins.

Oh yeah I miss Diablo 2 javazon

Xbows: YES
Javelins/Spears: YES
Pikes: YES
Firearms: NO

We have Path of Pokemon and Path of Mario. We don't need Path of Duty

Crossbow: BOo.
Guns: BOo.
/bwam.