Crossbow and gun

"

Richard_skull wrote:

I too would like to see crossbows in the game, but I wouldn't make them str based. I think a better way (makes more sense) would be to add throwing weapons to the game. Throwing Axes for STR. Javelins for Dex, and knives (shurukins(sp?)) for Int/dex (shadows). And while I'm rambling, I always wanted an aRPG with whips, and I know the creators of this game could come up with some cool whip active skills (you know for ice cream, I keed).

Throwing axes or shurikens would be quite similar to Spectral Throw. And if you argue that spectral is different as it is unmaterial attack and it passes through enemies.... dropping out this characteristic would just make something inferior to spectral throw. Of course, it could compensate with number, for instance, but then just get ethereal knives which are influenced by weapon stats. Not much more new mechanic to add, just more fancy looks.

Same with the crossbows - we already have faster but weaker bows or stronger but slower. There is no hole it could fill. Adding some additional piercing effect or higher chance for bleeding sounds just like nice ideas for unique rather than weapon. Also, making it str base might sound nice from game perspective but seriously, do you believe you could use crossbow with zero reflex and aiming abilities ? Wands are firing some spell-like projectile so it's based on totally different mechanic but cross-bows are just a bit mechanized bows if you think about it - nothing more to add.

About the whip it sounds pretty interesting idea but I am not really sure how to fit it. Dex/Int based weapon for shadow ? Melee with quite long range, small attack but with bleeding and knockback/slower movements effect ? It would be similar to claws in stats but rather than depending on leaching it would help to keep enemies at distance.
Hmm....

Crossbow? Guns? pff

Whips! Think about it:

+13 Melee range.

Attributes: Strenght, Dexterity.

-Dual wielding whips / Whip + Shields / Whip + Spiked bundle
-Spiked bundle increases range passively by 10.
-18% Increased Critical strike chance
-Unique - Chair - increases whip whipping trippin' and blocking chance by 50%.

*Can't be used or mixed with Swords, claws, knifes, daggers.

"

B34C0N wrote:

Crossbow? Guns? pff

Whips! Think about it:

+13 Melee range.

Attributes: Strenght, Dexterity.

-Dual wielding whips / Whip + Shields / Whip + Spiked bundle
-Spiked bundle increases range passively by 10.
-18% Increased Critical strike chance
-Unique - Chair - increases whip whipping trippin' and blocking chance by 50%.

*Can't be used or mixed with Swords, claws, knifes, daggers.

This discussion needs new thread !!

All with ideas for "whip weapon" are welcome here:

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1247715

"

Alex_Lied wrote:

"

Richard_skull wrote:

I too would like to see crossbows in the game, but I wouldn't make them str based. I think a better way (makes more sense) would be to add throwing weapons to the game. Throwing Axes for STR. Javelins for Dex, and knives (shurukins(sp?)) for Int/dex (shadows). And while I'm rambling, I always wanted an aRPG with whips, and I know the creators of this game could come up with some cool whip active skills (you know for ice cream, I keed).

Throwing axes or shurikens would be quite similar to Spectral Throw. And if you argue that spectral is different as it is unmaterial attack and it passes through enemies.... dropping out this characteristic would just make something inferior to spectral throw. Of course, it could compensate with number, for instance, but then just get ethereal knives which are influenced by weapon stats. Not much more new mechanic to add, just more fancy looks.

Same with the crossbows - we already have faster but weaker bows or stronger but slower. There is no hole it could fill. Adding some additional piercing effect or higher chance for bleeding sounds just like nice ideas for unique rather than weapon. Also, making it str base might sound nice from game perspective but seriously, do you believe you could use crossbow with zero reflex and aiming abilities ? Wands are firing some spell-like projectile so it's based on totally different mechanic but cross-bows are just a bit mechanized bows if you think about it - nothing more to add.

About the whip it sounds pretty interesting idea but I am not really sure how to fit it. Dex/Int based weapon for shadow ? Melee with quite long range, small attack but with bleeding and knockback/slower movements effect ? It would be similar to claws in stats but rather than depending on leaching it would help to keep enemies at distance.
Hmm....

Yes.

That was the whole fucking point of the crossbow. You didn't need to worry about aiming and pulling and being strong enough to use a long bow. You just pointed and you pulled the trigger.

Please note that this may appear to contradict what Dan_GGG said, it doesn't -- his point relates to my 2) -- however, the rest of the spiel deals with the ramifications of 3) and 4) on PoE.

OK, I think that it's time to clear up some misconceptions about crossbows and bows:

1) In general, bows took longer to train in use, as well as greater strength and dexterity.

2) In general, crossbows became more popular because they took much less time (~ a week for a crossbow vs years for a bow) to train in use, much less strength, and somewhat less dexterity.

3) However, in terms of gameplay, this is overlooking the fact that crossbow conscripts were only employed en masse in volley fire. Clearly, this is not viable in PoE.

4) Skilled crossbowmen still received years of training and drill, and acquired a skill on par with skilled bowmen (a LOT of individual points can be argued, but in total they were about even). Look up the Genoese crossbowmen or the Flemish crossbowmen under Richard the Lionheart for more info.

5) Gunpowder eventually replaced crossbows (which were replacing bows, which were replacing peltasts, which were replacing slings...), due to its greater ease and power compared to crossbows. However, one could hardly say that an expert marksman nowadays has "zero reflex and aiming abilities" -- despite the fact that guns are a step even further down from crossbows.

6) Crossbows were not, however, anything resembling the modern conception of them, in physical shape, size, or use. They were massive (3+ feet long from stock to tip), heavy (they actually derived from artillery pieces), slow to fire (~2-3 per minute compared to 12-20 for longbows)... In fact, they were so massive, slow, and unwieldy that many crossbowmen had a servant to help them (ideally, they had two -- one to hold the massive shield, and one to load the empty crossbow for them -- this could yield ~8 rounds per minute for a trained team).

7) Oddly enough, however (because physics), crossbows were generally considered more accurate than bows (both for unskilled vs unskilled, and skilled vs skilled). They did have shorter range, and less piercing power, though (until late in their development, at which point they surpassed even English Longbows).

Anyways, the point of all this is that trying to justify including or not including crossbows based on historical/realistic principles is not going to happen. For that matter, as has been pointed out, bows don't make sense from the same perspective. Heck, I'd even wager that Fireballs in PoE are just a bit more powerful than what I can produce. It's a game.

I still think that (disregarding ST) there's not really a need for it, or a place in the designspace for it without a MAJOR patch. I can't think of anything that would differentiate it in any way but aesthetic, and it would require a major skill tree rebuild. That being said, I'm not opposed to the idea if someone can come up with a good way to implement it. I haven't seen anything that has piqued my interest yet (mostly just "bows but with str instead of dex" or "slower but more damage").

Anyone have any other ideas?

To be honest, as I already stated earlier, I don't see interesting mechanic which crossbows could introduce. It would be just some addition for looks.

....then again, it could be nice idea for a unique item with the mechanics of a bow. Even if only for looks. Especially if we think about some creative constructions for multishooting. But multishooting in one direction would be just including barage skill to an item and multiple shots in different directions is well.. multiple projectiles. It could be a different story if this could work before skills like enabling for 3/4 barrages in different angles rather than more shots in one barrage (like Multiple projectiles do at the moment). It could be build-enabling unique. But then... it's usage would be quite niche.

"

tsftd wrote:

informative lecture

Please note that this may appear to contradict what Dan_GGG said, it doesn't -- his point relates to my 2) -- however, the rest of the spiel deals with the ramifications of 3) and 4) on PoE.

OK, I think that it's time to clear up some misconceptions about crossbows and bows:

1) In general, bows took longer to train in use, as well as greater strength and dexterity.

2) In general, crossbows became more popular because they took much less time (~ a week for a crossbow vs years for a bow) to train in use, much less strength, and somewhat less dexterity.

3) However, in terms of gameplay, this is overlooking the fact that crossbow conscripts were only employed en masse in volley fire. Clearly, this is not viable in PoE.

4) Skilled crossbowmen still received years of training and drill, and acquired a skill on par with skilled bowmen (a LOT of individual points can be argued, but in total they were about even). Look up the Genoese crossbowmen or the Flemish crossbowmen under Richard the Lionheart for more info.

5) Gunpowder eventually replaced crossbows (which were replacing bows, which were replacing peltasts, which were replacing slings...), due to its greater ease and power compared to crossbows. However, one could hardly say that an expert marksman nowadays has "zero reflex and aiming abilities" -- despite the fact that guns are a step even further down from crossbows.

6) Crossbows were not, however, anything resembling the modern conception of them, in physical shape, size, or use. They were massive (3+ feet long from stock to tip), heavy (they actually derived from artillery pieces), slow to fire (~2-3 per minute compared to 12-20 for longbows)... In fact, they were so massive, slow, and unwieldy that many crossbowmen had a servant to help them (ideally, they had two -- one to hold the massive shield, and one to load the empty crossbow for them -- this could yield ~8 rounds per minute for a trained team).

7) Oddly enough, however (because physics), crossbows were generally considered more accurate than bows (both for unskilled vs unskilled, and skilled vs skilled). They did have shorter range, and less piercing power, though (until late in their development, at which point they surpassed even English Longbows).

Anyways, the point of all this is that trying to justify including or not including crossbows based on historical/realistic principles is not going to happen. For that matter, as has been pointed out, bows don't make sense from the same perspective. Heck, I'd even wager that Fireballs in PoE are just a bit more powerful than what I can produce. It's a game.

I still think that (disregarding ST) there's not really a need for it, or a place in the designspace for it without a MAJOR patch. I can't think of anything that would differentiate it in any way but aesthetic, and it would require a major skill tree rebuild. That being said, I'm not opposed to the idea if someone can come up with a good way to implement it. I haven't seen anything that has piqued my interest yet (mostly just "bows but with str instead of dex" or "slower but more damage").

Anyone have any other ideas?

Yea, just like wands are like bows, but with int.

You seem to be underselling the idea that some (me) are positing. It wouldn't be "just another weapon base" - as you rightly say, that wouldn't work. We're talking about adding a whole new weapon class, nodes, skills and the ilk. A mjaor patch is precisely what is being suggested.

Now, whether there's room for another weapon class in the game - that's a valid debate. But let's at least debate about the right thing :D

really, my response then would be "is it worth a major overhaul of the skill tree and a major patch overall for something that would have such a minor effect on the game?" Apparently, the opinion of most of the people posting in this thread would be "yes", and mine would be "no" -- at least insofaras the current suggestions go.

on the other hand, the whip thread that forked out of here at least has some interesting ideas -- not sure if they're ultimately viable, but some new and interesting theorycrafting is coming out of it. so I remain positively disposed to the possibility that someone may come up with some concrete ideas which would make crossbows worth pursuing (IMO).

Man, i would reject guns in this game...
However crossbows are worthy.

Two types of crossbow:
1- Cho-ko-nu, aka chinese crossbow, faster than longbows but with less damage per hit
2- Crossbow, aka european crossbow, slower than crossbows but with more damage per hit

They could fit role as Duelist weapon for Crossbow and as Shadow weapon for Cho-ko-nu.
Both have DEX, but one is STR/DEX and other is DEX/INT.

a str/dex alligned xbow wouldnt be out of the question, there's pleanty of supporting skills going from duelist area to marauder even a few templar of particular note, rt/ig/pb with the right supports you can do some godly damage.

i did pmuch this build in beyond and died to a box at 53ish damage was pretty awesome(iceshot).if there was ever a time to add an xbow it would be now, where the jewel's and maraketh weapons are the perfect things' to do this with.