Look GGG, another armor thread

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Ceryneian wrote:

What does Acro have to do with Dexterity? Nothing.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha-no.

If you can't understand what is wrong with your statement here, then you also don't understand why you are a colossal moron, and there isn't any further explaining to be done on the subject.

You just rolled a 1 on your logic test. Critical failure.

If ggg removed lightning coil and MoM/CoD (and the percentage phys flask) I bet people here would change their tune about armor.

It's not that armor is bad, it's that the aforementioned items are too good. Ggg keeps adding broken uniques and that is the problem here. Not armor.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

If ggg removed lightning coil and MoM/CoD (and the percentage phys flask) I bet people here would change their tune about armor.

It's not that armor is bad, it's that the aforementioned items are too good. Ggg keeps adding broken uniques and that is the problem here. Not armor.

No, Armour is bad.
HP > Armour pretty much every time.
Endurance Charges and Soul of Steel provide a fixed damage reduction.
= Infinity Armour for the duration of the skill.
Block/Dodge/Evasion etc all do an excellent job of preventing burst damage.

I levelled a melee char to 100 with 2k Armour Rating and Unwavering Stance. HP gives higher leech rate, stronger regen, shorter elemental ailments, better buffer. Pretty much always more desirable.

No, the underlying problem is Armour, and the damage reduction formula. These "broken" uniques were actually added to help improve the efficacy of existing armour builds. They only "backfired" (I use that term very loosely) because they allow you completely forgo any investment into armour and instead invest into other defence mechanisms.
Build Diversity be praised.

"

Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

If ggg removed lightning coil and MoM/CoD (and the percentage phys flask) I bet people here would change their tune about armor.

It's not that armor is bad, it's that the aforementioned items are too good. Ggg keeps adding broken uniques and that is the problem here. Not armor.

No, Armour is bad.
HP > Armour pretty much every time.
Endurance Charges and Soul of Steel provide a fixed damage reduction.

= Infinity Armour for the duration of the skill.
Block/Dodge/Evasion etc all do an excellent job of preventing burst damage.

I levelled a melee char to 100 with 2k Armour Rating and Unwavering Stance. HP gives higher leech rate, stronger regen, shorter elemental ailments, better buffer. Pretty much always more desirable.

No, the underlying problem is Armour, and the damage reduction formula. These "broken" uniques were actually added to help improve the efficacy of existing armour builds. They only backfired because they allow you completely forgo any investment into armour and instead invest into other defence mechanisms.
Build Diversity be praised.

Of course HP is > armor, how is that even relevant to this discussion? One is not mutually exclusive to the other.

Block dodge and evasion do absolutely 0 to prevent burst damage, as it usually comes in the form of a single powerful crit/shield charge while shocked and cursed or with extra damage auras/mob mods/map mods. Given the existence of IC, armor is actually the only way to actually mitigate the "first hit" aside from the things I already mentioned.

So again, there is nothing wrong with armor other than the existence of those things I mentioned already. And, in fact, armor stacks with flat reductions of any kind better than evasion ever will.

ES is kind of its own thing with drawbacks and advantages, I would argue ES is probably the best "defense stat" because it adds to your life pool more than life actually would itself, and that extra ES can in many cases make up for the lost "mitigation" from armor or EV. It's just much harder to build with ES.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

Of course HP is > armor, how is that even relevant to this discussion? One is not mutually exclusive to the other.

Block dodge and evasion do absolutely 0 to prevent burst damage, as it usually comes in the form of a single powerful crit/shield charge while shocked and cursed or with extra damage auras/mob mods/map mods. Given the existence of IC, armor is actually the only way to actually mitigate the "first hit" aside from the things I already mentioned.

So again, there is nothing wrong with armor other than the existence of those things I mentioned already. And, in fact, armor stacks with flat reductions of any kind better than evasion ever will.

ES is kind of its own thing with drawbacks and advantages, I would argue ES is probably the best "defense stat" because it adds to your life pool more than life actually would itself, and that extra ES can in many cases make up for the lost "mitigation" from armor or EV. It's just much harder to build with ES.

Opportunity cost my friend. Every Armour node you take, is a HP node not taken.

You know one can actually pre-cast Immortal Call. Either way, you're better served with a higher HP buffer.
Evasion is entropic, this prevents a lot of damage from that pack of shield chargers you're so concerned about.
Block is not entropic, it still gives great levels of avoidance.
The examples you listed most likely result in your armour being crushed anyway.......

More life = more time to react and flask.

"

Block dodge and evasion do absolutely 0 to prevent burst damage

This is completely wrong, you will prevent it X% of the time. Any mistakes made by bad play, or those "bad-luck stars" aligning are more forgiving with damage avoidance mechanisms.

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LostKavi wrote:

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Ceryneian wrote:

What does Acro have to do with Dexterity? Nothing.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha-no.

If you can't understand what is wrong with your statement here, then you also don't understand why you are a colossal moron, and there isn't any further explaining to be done on the subject.

You just rolled a 1 on your logic test. Critical failure.

See this is what I really don't get. This is the first time I have come across someone who thinks about the tree and builds in terms of dex/int/strength. And you are the 2nd. This isn't DotA or HoN guys, there is no such thing as dex/strength/int build.

You are looking at the game as if the first time you started playing was 2 days ago lol.

Please explain to me how Dexterity influences Acro. Explain. There is no build in PoE that aims to stack Dex and Dex has NOTHING to do with Acrobatics apart from being on the same side of the tree. Dex only increases evasion, it has nothign to do with Acro. You can build a Templar/Shadow/Witch with life nodes that takes Acro - please explain to me where Dexterity comes into this.

Same thing goes for Strength. Please explain to me how Strength influences your Armor Rating. Explain.

I would really like to hear your logic on these 2 so I await your explanation.

No offense guys, but based on this thread you armor users seem to be the most clueless in PoE, so no wonder you are the ones raging the most on the forums.

"

CanHasPants wrote:

Yup, I'm done ^-^

Classic words for someone with nothing left to argue.

"

Ceryneian wrote:

"

CanHasPants wrote:

Yup, I'm done ^-^

Classic words for someone with nothing left to argue.

Um. No shit. I made no argument in the first place (withholding admissions of laziness and careless choice of words, and any resulting misunderstandings.. or are you still hung up on that?) You're asking me to defend positions I never proclaimed. So.. yeah. no shit.

Hopefully this clears things up.

<3

"

Ceryneian wrote:

"

LostKavi wrote:

"

Ceryneian wrote:

What does Acro have to do with Dexterity? Nothing.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha-no.

If you can't understand what is wrong with your statement here, then you also don't understand why you are a colossal moron, and there isn't any further explaining to be done on the subject.

You just rolled a 1 on your logic test. Critical failure.

See this is what I really don't get. This is the first time I have come across someone who thinks about the tree and builds in terms of dex/int/strength. And you are the 2nd. This isn't DotA or HoN guys, there is no such thing as dex/strength/int build.

You are looking at the game as if the first time you started playing was 2 days ago lol.

Please explain to me how Dexterity influences Acro. Explain. There is no build in PoE that aims to stack Dex and Dex has NOTHING to do with Acrobatics apart from being on the same side of the tree. Dex only increases evasion, it has nothign to do with Acro. You can build a Templar/Shadow/Witch with life nodes that takes Acro - please explain to me where Dexterity comes into this.

Same thing goes for Strength. Please explain to me how Strength influences your Armor Rating. Explain.

I would really like to hear your logic on these 2 so I await your explanation.

No offense guys, but based on this thread you armor users seem to be the most clueless in PoE, so no wonder you are the ones raging the most on the forums.

"

CanHasPants wrote:

Yup, I'm done ^-^

Classic words for someone with nothing left to argue.

Why even have armor in the game then, if HP is always better than armor? I mean, there should be a better way for people to see how little it's actually doing, OR it should be buffed to be viable to be using - otherwise, like I said, why even have it in the game? Just so people have more nodes to look at and read, and ignore? I mean it's a waste of space on the tree and on items.. I suppose it has the one benefit of making it easy to survive with a non-twinked character, but really that could also be accomplished by having +hp roll more often on items instead. There are more ways to actually get around having no armor in the game than keeping it and having it be a system that's just a noob trap for no apparent reason other than wasting peoples time (having to read nodes that they will never use, and having to ask questions about why they have so much armor and are still dying).

"

Corpsey wrote:

Why even have armor in the game then, if HP is always better than armor? I mean, there should be a better way for people to see how little it's actually doing, OR it should be buffed to be viable to be using - otherwise, like I said, why even have it in the game? Just so people have more nodes to look at and read, and ignore? I mean it's a waste of space on the tree and on items.. I suppose it has the one benefit of making it easy to survive with a non-twinked character, but really that could also be accomplished by having +hp roll more often on items instead. There are more ways to actually get around having no armor in the game than keeping it and having it be a system that's just a noob trap for no apparent reason other than wasting peoples time (having to read nodes that they will never use, and having to ask questions about why they have so much armor and are still dying).

At the end of the day, it's all about effective hit points (eHP). There are very few cases for which investments into Armour actually translate into worthwhile gains in eHP. This is the true crux of the issue.
As I demonstrated with my Lightning Coil example (just one example, there exist many options), you are given excellent mitigation when you need it most, and the circumstances where that mitigation isn't needed are of no consequence anyway. Efficient.

Why should Armour be in the game? Just because it's perceived to be weak or imbalanced does not mean the situation cannot be remedied.
Who knows, perhaps GGG know something we don't? As Snorkle is so fond of saying; it's all about community knowledge.

"

Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

At the end of the day, it's all about effective hit points (eHP). There are very few cases for which investments into Armour actually translate into worthwhile gains in eHP. This is the true crux of the issue.
As I demonstrated with my Lightning Coil example (just one example, there exist many options), you are given excellent mitigation when you need it most, and the circumstances where that mitigation isn't needed are of no consequence anyway. Efficient.

Why should Armour be in the game? Just because it's perceived to be weak or imbalanced does not mean the situation cannot be remedied.
Who knows, perhaps GGG know something we don't? As Snorkle is so fond of saying; it's all about community knowledge.

Rant

In fact, the only build(s) I am aware of are (were?) Aegis builds. Make no mistake, Aegis builds were God-tier vs trash mobs (utterly trivial content, so who cares?), however they were often quite vulnerable to being "one-shot".
Unfortunately patch 1.3.0 reduced those builds to trash-tier unless you have access to legacy items. I suppose trading a fuckton of potential dps and clearspeed for defence against disconnects was considered too stronk. (Because meaningful trade-off's and decisions shouldn't exist in the game right?)

Yeah, I did read the lightning coil build and it's not too bad, but I mean in terms of actually getting a build from the tree rather than gear. I mean, why even bother with lightning coil when you can have immortal call built into one of the gem combinations you are able to have? By that I mean, why not have something like LC built into the tree instead of gear? By having a build rely completely on gear, there is no longer a point in finding gear because your build is working from BiS.. I guess the only thing you'd have to do if you can't afford a 6L is play the "try to 6L your BiS gear" game - but that becomes boring pretty quickly, because you are then using gear that you know could be better - the very gear that's just sitting in your inv - and you know that all it will do is increase what? Survivability? In a game where dying really doesn't mean all that much anyways except to HC players? And all that because you're waiting on currency items or a lucky drop that's desired instead of being able to obtain the same survivability from the tree and actually be using whatever armor you want.

I suppose it's not that bad of a system if your attention span is good enough, I mean I used to play D2 a lot and it was pretty much the same thing where you needed specific items to have build work correctly. I just feel though like in D2, the auras were less strict... for example, instead of 3 seconds of invincibility, you were able to get 4~5 mins of +300% defense. That's not to say that the way PoE goes about it is 'wrong' - but at least in that respect, you were able to swap out armor and change up your build rather easily - sure there would be BiS, but there would also be 'close to BiS' that was better or more efficient for some particular areas. By having a build completely rely on 1~3 items, it makes it so that there is just 'that build', and 'those items'. Not to mention, and the point I was trying to make, you can actually just incorporate IC into some aspect of your build and ignore LC - which is not a gear or a tree thing. So where are the tree options? I mean, I suppose they come in the form of making your gems more powerful, but there are no real tree options that increase armor enough to be viable in a build without unique gear or IC, are there? *shrug*

Anyways, I don't play enough to have a say in this really, all I know is that I attempted an armor/evasion hybrid, and it was awful.. If I had pursued evasion it would have been better but being stubborn I tried to make armor work and there were just not enough stones in the tree to boost it to the point where I wasn't dying to reflect - even WITH that ring that negates 30% phys reflect - 1 shot = death. And the worst part is that I knew it was going to happen - I did the math to know it was a possibility, but the sad part is the solutions that are possible, most of which relied on IC which is actually just annoying to watch, and just straight up "invincibility" is pretty lame. I mean, people make fun of others for wanting to be invincible and then there are actually builds where that's completely possible (with the only exception being an unlucky encounter with devourers).

Also I understand eHP more than most... but seriously there's something wrong when some of these keystones give 30%~60% to AVOID DAMAGE and then the armor stones are like... +6% armor, +10% armor, which only translates to 1% dr. 30~60% chance to take 0. 1% less damage. Hmmmmmmmmm. Nothing broken here.