Melee is the worst bullshit ever in poe

So I couldn't remember when specifically spork got nerfed, and that makes my points invalid?

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Morgoth2356 wrote:

"top end game"

People were grinding to level 86 etc, almost exclusively with 66-72 maps, and non-map zones. How many "Docks Exp" parties do you see now compared to then?

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Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

So I couldn't remember when specifically spork got nerfed, and that makes my points invalid?

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Morgoth2356 wrote:

"top end game"

People were grinding to level 86 etc, almost exclusively with 66-72 maps, and non-map zones. How many "Docks Exp" parties do you see now compared to then?

It is a bit exagerated, I was doing 74+ maps on a regular basis, but we had to put a lot more currencies on the maps, that's all. My parties usually made 2c rotations on a map until the mods were good. We even exalted some maps. Instead of bringing many exalts and chaos to the parent league, they were put on maps. And the implicit "maze/larger area" patch (that made mapping way easier) took place early Nemesis, so high end content was pretty much available to every grinder with a bit of dedication. Once again, you're taking Nemesis for Onslaught and Vanilla HC.

But even if people were doing 66-72 maps almost exclusively (which was not the case) back in Nemesis, it was the same deal for everyone, melee and ranged. So it has nothing to do with balance between them since they share the same field. I don't know what that (not really accurate) argument is doing in a melee/ranged balance discussion.

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Morgoth2356 wrote:

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Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

So I couldn't remember when specifically spork got nerfed, and that makes my points invalid?

"

Morgoth2356 wrote:

"top end game"

People were grinding to level 86 etc, almost exclusively with 66-72 maps, and non-map zones. How many "Docks Exp" parties do you see now compared to then?

It is a bit exagerated, I was doing 74+ maps on a regular basis, but we had to put a lot more currencies on the maps, that's all. My parties usually made 2c rotations on a map until the mods were good. We even exalted some maps. Instead of bringing many exalts and chaos to the parent league, they were put on maps. And the implicit "maze/larger area" patch (that made mapping way easier) took place early Nemesis, so high end content was pretty much available to every grinder with a bit of dedication. Once again, you're taking Nemesis for Onslaught and Vanilla HC.

But even if people were doing 66-72 maps almost exclusively (which was not the case) back in Nemesis, it was the same deal for everyone, melee and ranged. So it has nothing to do with balance between them since they share the same field. I don't know what that (not really accurate) argument is doing in a melee/ranged balance discussion.

Ah quite right.

As for their relevance in this discussion, the disparity only becomes more apparent with harder content.

Crematorium Boss. What options does a melee build have here except to tank her firestorm? You basically have two options: Have the requisite defences, or skip the content. (Or die)
Ranged? .....What boss? All I see here is my loot after shooting offscreen a few times.......

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Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

Ah quite right.

As for their relevance in this discussion, the disparity only becomes more apparent with harder content.

Crematorium Boss. What options does a melee build have here except to tank her firestorm? You basically have two options: Have the requisite defences, or skip the content. (Or die)
Ranged? .....What boss? All I see here is my loot after shooting offscreen a few times.......

That's a fair point but I think that ranged suffer from that content difficulty curve too, but yes, maybe not as hard as melee. Crematorium boss is in my eyes a bad example since the firestorm can reach every player in the room (ranged or melee) that is on top of that pretty small. But that maybe not wisely chosen example doesn't invalidate your point, I think we can all identify some harder content that is harder for melee than for ranged (Palace Dominus with his slam for example).

BoR got very popular after WoE introduction. it was THE way to get tanky if melee - block + spell block were (and still are) the most powerful defenses in the game and BoR + WoE combo has INCREDIBLE synergy. toss in Lazhwar and Rainbows and you get a pretty damn tanky combo. WoE being good weapon helped a lot

also - that was BEFORE GGG went bananas with bows and buffed Arc to stupid levels (and other spells, too).

melee got shafted on survivability - block. ranged really did not change in this regard. added content (except for the Atziri herself) is just 'numbers' - melee has issues with these numbers once these get too high. no mechanical skill can save anyone from desync+powerful crit+added lightning+-max.

ranged can offscreen such stuff

i had to level a post-race character (lvl 40ish, templar) to 67 to start using Oro's (and once more realize it is crap). because i used Oro's go-to tree i had to rely on elemental/fire damage. Storm cloud + tornado shot + anger + WED + few fire passives was enough to clear 66maps at lvl 60. because i simply did not have to care about what is on the screen. it was dead.


if anyone wants to check how are Duelists doing:
http://i.imgur.com/kIIAK9w.jpg
i wonder when will GGG realise just how crappy his start nodes are and the class concept in general.. and if the fix will fix anything. i still remember the 'fix' to Blood Magic..

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VictorDoom wrote:

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Peterlerock wrote:

Melee is fine as it is.
Melee characters are fighting the game as intended, every mob and every mob mod has influence on gameplay.

Melee is just not fine, at all. At least 2h melee.
Melee was fine, 2 years ago in the last ladders of closed beta, its been shit since open beta release compared to ranged because of no proper damage mitigation, they increased mob damage in OB by a stupid amount so going ranged was your best defense since nothing helped against the high damage mobs, melee gets fucked by everything unless you have really good gear (and even then you do a lot worse than any other type of char with mirrored gear)

Melee needs better damage mitigation, and even better actual damage, especially for 2h melee.

As some suggested, an offhand slot for 2hand weapon users would be a great start, along with nice melee + life/dmg mitigation/rez nodes

theres a big difference between melee and 2h melee. Good melee builds off the top of my head...


1H ci

1H/DW coil + evasion + acro

1H/DW evasion + armour hybrid

1H aegis + armour + es hybrid


Not all 2 handed builds are shit, Hege does a good crit staff thing for example, Etup was killing it on his static striker etc. But in my limited experience of 2H builds the vast majority have been shit. Really weak, take so much damage, do rather medicore damage in return. Thats not melee, thats a specific thing within melee.

You need Evasion for melee. Thats a horrible generalization that in no way holds true across all builds, but mostly its true. You need entropic avoidance to tank mobs at close quarters and you need ondars to be able to control combat and be safe when out of leech range. If you think melee is shit and when you say it, what you are picturing as 'melee' is a build without Evasion, yes I can totally understand why you think its dogshit because that build is more than likely diabolically awful. But you do understand that people use the whole tree for melee right? The entire tree is a melee area and the one STR corner of it you are focusing on is fairly dogshit if it uses 2 handers and/or doesnt branch out to other corners of the tree. Thats not melee, thats one little wedge in the melee cake and if you think it sucks then fair play, generally I think it sucks too but in fairness, I dont make builds that camp there because it looks terrible so maybe Im just ignorant and its actually op. I doubt it but Ive been wrong before. One thing I know for sure is that builds that are not completely stuck in the str area can do very well.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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What's not perspective, is data. Data is objective. Your opinions are entirely subjective and not relevant at all.

Neither is anything you presented. The only thing you presented that was fact is not a lot of duelist at top of ladder, what isn't FACT is that duelist = melee, therefore melee is unbalanced/unplayable. GGG doesn't limit the use of skills to classes and please don't respond about efficiency or design because unless you have all the data GGG has then you don't have but the one (and only) leg to stand on.

Fact: not many duelist on top of the bloodlines ladder

Every single other thing you have mentioned in this thread is opinion, therefore no one should take it as anything other then that.

Duelist has by far the best and most abundant dual wield nodes in the game. I don't know what else to tell you besides that to convince you that it is a melee class. That is, in fact, a fact.

Maybe the reason you think duelist is so shit is because dual wield is terrible? I've theorycrafted plenty of 2W builds and on every one of them I wish I could reach duelist area because it's so much more efficient for 2W and has some really awesome nodes (master of the arena, dervish, blade barrier, twin terrors, art of the gladiator, studious combatant, blade master), all with effects you can't get anywhere else on the tree. But it's so far from shadow I just can't get to it and still be efficient. If I had even HALF those nodes in the shadow area I would die via nerdgasm.

As a shadow you get some really broken nodes, but also some total shit nodes like nullification and void barrier, which are completely fucking useless to anyone except level 80 characters wearing shavs.

why would u start a dual wield melee as a shadow? Any melee tbh outside of a glass cannon ci crit. Its a rly bad start for that imo. Ive found shadow a good start for 3 things, cast on crit, elemental life based attacks like wanding and ek, Ive yet to find another type of build Id use it for.

First 5 nodes of shadow are pretty crap imo if you are a physical attacker, youd want the first 5 of the ranger or the first 5 of the duelist way more, well, imo.

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgQBuR0V7Irw6UbEgsqQhNnEuEd-1fi9NmVNvqdgQWNwEdVXl0MxG8i2Qb_VhO9OKlO7RJ507WEhW6-wcyfVeu8S4eCV3Q0hYGBLBS2y3PzFwYsISVb6Z6B464FB26dW6HfXh3YKmzXvCVh_K-Of5wo67dP8MHzWikp973pRR419036NvyP2AF4knX117-MFtd3nTZIZjmJa_roDh-jWXovtgxutlWabJud0g70ILjIBbWyyGTY9tUjPep2qpn9h62KsbIztQXpTsbMWvyaVYeJVS4w2

Thats a dual wield hybrid armour + evasion duelist tree. Its designed to be a non weapon specific reaver with dual strike single target, you can use any combo of swords, claws or daggers. It goes right into the ranger and the shadow, but shadows the one you wouldnt want to take the opening nodes of. Ranger starting ud get a bit more attack speed, duelist gets a bit more phys. Its the only melee build I've put together so far that isnt superior starting as a ranger or a marauder or a witch. This is the thing with duelist melee, duelist is the 4th best melee start on the tree, thats why looking at him is not a good indicator of melee in general. Shadow is even worse than duelist tbh.

That builds with decent endgame gear at about lvl80 has

Life 5,294
Armour 7,054
Evasion 8,702
Block 30%

with more damage than the marauder sword and shield build I linked earlier, less armour and block though as you would expect. Theres a guide to that build in my sig, you can level it solo self found to 80+ in a hardcore league and its easy, Ive done it twice and never found anything even remotely difficult or scary up to that point doing it in Beyond, never died, never even came close to dying. Theres a guide to it in my sig, you can just level with wetstone + rustic recipe claws and self found magic/rare/unique 1 handers. For deep endgame you want either full on armour gears or a lightning coil. Dual Wield is great, starting dual wield as a shadow then not managing to take the ranger and duelist starts probably sucks balls ya, I havent tried it but it sounds bad.

also nulification and void barrier, I get those on my ci melee witch build and I get them on a hybrid life + energy shield barrage cast on crit shadow. Theyre good nodes for lots of es builds.

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Morgoth2356 wrote:

People saying melee always sucked in PoE or at least since release never played Nemesis league. I made 4 85+ chars in that league (one was 92) and it was BoR duelists blenders all over the place.

My quote was not that they always sucked but that they have always been inferior to ranged in general.

clear speed, damage, survivability is just easier to get going ranged. From what I have seen in the game.

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iamstryker wrote:

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Morgoth2356 wrote:

People saying melee always sucked in PoE or at least since release never played Nemesis league. I made 4 85+ chars in that league (one was 92) and it was BoR duelists blenders all over the place.

My quote was not that they always sucked but that they have always been inferior to ranged in general.

clear speed, damage, survivability is just easier to get going ranged. From what I have seen in the game.

Yup I understood and I agree with that, it was not meant to answer to you.

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My quote was not that they always sucked but that they have always been inferior to ranged in general.

clear speed, damage, survivability is just easier to get going ranged. From what I have seen in the game.

That is kinda how all melee build have ever worked in ARPG games, people go melee because they like smashing mobs faces in up close in personal.

I was actually doing some further look into the duelist tree and the pathing looks weird, which is offputting to most players, however I think its actually BETTER then the ranger start for melee builds. Looking closer at the changes from 1.2 to 1.3, they simply removed the proj nodes from the duelist and moved around and changed the life nodes a bit. So instead of 4 pathing options from the start you have 3.

Either go left (phys) or right(attackspeed). Then decide do you want more phs or life or more attackspeed or life.

One thing I think people also have to keep in mind with the block changes (if your stacking max block that is) you have to start as scion (or travel to her starting nodes), in which case you might as well start if you HAVE to get a starting node of a class. She has 4% block there, so for melee its not to be scoffed at.

Another thing people have to keep in mind is that at the start of a league players want the best and most efficient ways to level given the currency they have, so going marauder at the start might be better so you can get to RT quicker.

The % chart can be misleading to most players, as you all well know templar had significant changes and almost any class that appears to be buffed for the better will have high % of players.