Still no balance a year later - with facts

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mark1030 wrote:

OK, guy, explain how 10000 level 2's can skew numbers where the top 15,000 are level 79+?

Are people legit discussing "class balance" in a game with no "classes", with the classes just saying were your place in the skill tree is.

Like really.

The most popular "classes" will be the ones most optimal for the most popular builds in the game, thus people will play them the most. Vice versa many people will always pick the "ranger" because people love bow builds in this game regardless of starting area.


GGG has remade the skill tree twice, obviously since the balance attempt failed they are semi remaking half of the skill tree again.

Also none of your post have anything to do one another, you are talking about GGG balance the game. But 80% of the post is about your personal history with GGG or "botting/rmt", and popular class choices in hardcore. The last 20% is they do a bad job of balancing and the game could be better.

~.~

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RagnarokChu wrote:

GGG has remade the skill tree twice, obviously since the balance attempt failed they are semi remaking half of the skill tree again.

Also none of your post have anything to do one another, you are talking about GGG balance the game. But 80% of the post is about your personal history with GGG or "botting/rmt"

Bolded the important bit here... but to address your first point, It's not really a failure. They just update slices of the tree at a time.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

Any class can stack dps and die, hc performance on the ladder shows their real performance.

And yes, there are probably classes worse off than shadow, I said that in the OP.

If I'm the only one who cares about clad balance in a game? Fine then, but I challenge you to support that statement. Balance is important.

I just... HC leaderboards are tangentially related to class balance at BEST. HC ladder is in no way representative of class performance. SC ladder is considerably better because it represents the only performance metric worth measuring (XP/hr, or alternatively clear speed). In a properly played build it does not matter what class you have, deaths are all about fucking up and have nothing to do with class performance.

Just because some builds are harder to fuck up with doesn't mean they have better performance. Just means they require less effort. Huge difference.

And of course. Most importantly. Shadow has the absolute best early tree in the game. Bar none. This is not a "class balance" issue. It's a "Low Life exists" issue, arbitrarily skewing builds toward the left of the tree. And as long as lowlife is essentially easy mode (once established) Shadow won't shine.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

Are people legit discussing "class balance" in a game with no "classes", with the classes just saying were your place in the skill tree is.

Exactly what I was thinking reading the OP. How can he says "Shadows are more likely to die in HC it's unfair", when every class must spend an average of like 5 points to go out of his starting area if needed ? You can make a shadow with tons of life and mitigation if you want. Made in 2 minutes, but just for the example : Lightning Caster shadow with 197% max life, 270+% spell/lightning/elemental damage and EB/100% mana regen at around level 80+ : Example

There is no "class" in PoE, just different starting points in the same passive tree.

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Morgoth2356 wrote:

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RagnarokChu wrote:

Are people legit discussing "class balance" in a game with no "classes", with the classes just saying were your place in the skill tree is.

Exactly what I was thinking reading the OP. How can he says "Shadows are more likely to die in HC it's unfair", when every class must spend an average of like 5 points to go out of his starting area if needed ? You can make a shadow with tons of life and mitigation if you want. Made in 2 minutes, but just for the example : Lightning Caster shadow with 197% max life, 270+% spell/lightning/elemental damage and EB/100% mana regen at around level 80+ : Example

There is no "class" in PoE, just different starting points in the same passive tree.

From the OP's PoV that build isn't capable of being in the top 40 (simply because the top 40 is 85% Low Life variants) so it's automatically non-viable and not indicative of performance balance.

regardless of survival potential.

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Autocthon wrote:

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Morgoth2356 wrote:

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RagnarokChu wrote:

Are people legit discussing "class balance" in a game with no "classes", with the classes just saying were your place in the skill tree is.

Exactly what I was thinking reading the OP. How can he says "Shadows are more likely to die in HC it's unfair", when every class must spend an average of like 5 points to go out of his starting area if needed ? You can make a shadow with tons of life and mitigation if you want. Made in 2 minutes, but just for the example : Lightning Caster shadow with 197% max life, 270+% spell/lightning/elemental damage and EB/100% mana regen at around level 80+ : Example

There is no "class" in PoE, just different starting points in the same passive tree.

From the OP's PoV that build isn't capable of being in the top 40 (simply because the top 40 is 85% Low Life variants) so it's automatically non-viable and not indicative of performance balance.

regardless of survival potential.

Again, FACTS. 0 surviving shadows in top 40 is a FACT, not an opinion with a bunch of conjecture as to why that is. It is a FACT that has remained true since at least before March.

Other classes being able to do any build just as well? Aside from being FACTUALLY inaccurate, it's also conjecture which you can't support with anything besides an opinion.

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mark1030 wrote:

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Legatus1982 wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

Somebody on Reddit posted a graphic showing what classes and levels achieved for the 15,000 people in the ladders for Rampage and Beyond:

http://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/2n1by6/end_of_league_ladder_breakdown_classes_levels/

The graphic is in the first post but here is a direct link: http://i.imgur.com/4c9QAum.jpg

Proof positive that the OP in this topic is full of crap. Shadows were the third most popular class in both leagues, only behind Ranger and Witch. If you would have been arguing that Templar and Duelist were the crappy classes, you might have had a point. But probably only for a few more weeks since we already know both those classes are getting reworked in the 1.3.0 tree.

That's a cumulative total and indicates nothing guy. I could roll 10000 level 2 anything and make it top that list. This is about performance and you contributed nothing to that.

OK, guy, explain how 10000 level 2's can skew numbers where the top 15,000 are level 79+?

I'm not sure what part of this is confusing for you. Shadows are middle of the pack in poularity/selection, according to your own data. And at the top of the list there are 0 surviving shadows in the top 40. 5 in the top 100.

This is not misrepresentation of data and it's not debatable, that is indication of a performance problem at higher levels of play. There's nothing to dispute here other than the "contributions" of some of the people in this thread who have added nothing besides conjecture and frankly a good amount of stupidity.

emm, balancing the classes, really? just pick the start position which is better for the build and go on..

The balance we maybe have to look for is in my oppinion:

Main goal is that your char should be able to run 80% of map rolls and uber atziri with ANY main skill (even Shield Charge;) ) of your choice if :

1. You have invested more then 1000 hours in farming gear/currency/leveling
2. You have invested more then 1000 hours for trading as well. I know it sucks but GGG isnt going to make a proper trade system cause we have to spend more time beeing in the game to spend more money for mtxs
3. You have deep understanding how to gear, level and skill your char with this build.
4. Even if your unlucky with the drops.

maybe some other keystones i forgot....

If it will be possible to reblance the game this way it will be more accessable for new players and more enjoyable for the others.
Its still a fact there are only some ppl runing endgame content with more then 1 char cause of missing currency and time.

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baumpaul wrote:

emm, balancing the classes, really? just pick the start position which is better for the build and go on..

Classes/gems/etc, the game lacks balance. Again, if you don't care how balanced the game is feel free to "not care". The fact that you are posting here shows at least enough to suspect otherwise.

Anyone who has anything sensible to add against this is free to do so, I'm getting tired of the endless droves of mindless spewing with literally nothing supporting those opinions. Clear lack of any kind of foundation for an opposing argument.