NERF freakin daggers

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tramshed wrote:
Lets look at this realistically. The monsters see you coming from a mile a fucking away. Its literally thier only job. So how you can use a dagger (which is rarely more than two foot long) to surprise attack them with precision, well, thats fucking hilarious. Its just a case of GGG not actually balancing thier base types, which is a big reason why shit isnt balanced.

Every weapon of the same tier should do the same base dps, thier special bits should come from from how they are used/

Flavorfully, I believe critical hits represent hitting weak-points(arteries and such) to do a lot of damage. (You'd be surprised how many people survive stab-wounds in real life).
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Poutsos wrote:
While i agree with the diminishing returns idea as i have said in other posts, there is no 100% crit rate. The way accuracy works, for a perfect 95% crit+95% chance to hit, the final crit chance is 85%. On a realistic build with really good gear with 95% crit chance and 85% chance to hit, the final crit chance is 68%. Loath Bane is just too damn fast, so the non crits do not make much difference. But if you hard cap crit on 50%, even with 90% accuracy the final crit chance will be 40%, which will likely make daggers useless.

Good points, though I don't think a 40% effective crit rate would make daggers "useless". Perhaps useless for players looking for an overpowered BiS trophy to exploit, but it's plenty powerful for a build that uses crit to sporatically augment its mainline melee damage.
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tramshed wrote:
Lets look at this realistically. The monsters see you coming from a mile a fucking away. Its literally thier only job. So how you can use a dagger (which is rarely more than two foot long) to surprise attack them with precision, well, thats fucking hilarious. Its just a case of GGG not actually balancing thier base types, which is a big reason why shit isnt balanced.

Every weapon of the same tier should do the same base dps, thier special bits should come from from how they are used/

Flavorfully, I believe critical hits represent hitting weak-points(arteries and such) to do a lot of damage. (You'd be surprised how many people survive stab-wounds in real life).

It kind of makes you wonder though, whether or not crits should favor single target attacks and not aoe. Flavor-wise, anyways. I find it kind of difficult to believe that a "wave" of damage can be manipulated with such precision as to pinpoint multiple adversaries' vitals simultaneously, the same way a methodically well placed blade can.

Could be a topic in re: One vs. Many.
Devolving Wilds
Land
“T, Sacrifice Devolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card and reveal it. Then shuffle your library.”
Last edited by CanHasPants on Aug 29, 2014, 4:46:03 PM
So currently the solution could basically be to slightly nerf the crit. Chance of daggers and increase the critical multiplier of two-handers ...
I like many kinds of games 😊
You know there are no "weapons" in this game, just stat sticks that enables your attacks since you don't really do anything with the weapon that has any meaningful choice. Dagger doesn't do "pierce" damage over "smash" damage over the 2h hammer, skeletons don't take 80% less damage from daggers because they have no flesh and it just goes through the space between the ribs and so on.

Reality is nerfing daggers still makes them the best weapon, and if you gut them then the fastest weapon will win.
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RagnarokChu wrote:
Reality is nerfing daggers still makes them the best weapon, and if you gut them then the fastest weapon will win.

Not when you consider the indirect benefits of diminishing returns formulas. With the current unrestricted mechanics, the optimal choice is to max crit chance and multiplier on the fastest weapon with the highest base crit chance. Consequently, you grab as many crit nodes as you possibly can and devote your entire build to maxing out your crit potential. This is a recipe for single-minded builds that shun diversity.

With diminishing returns formulas, the value of a weapon with a high base crit chance is that it will reach max crit levels with far fewer crit nodes than other weapons. This opens up your build to the potential for combining crit with other synergistic skills, broadening the build diversity of the game. It then becomes advisable to use cherry-picking Skill Tree strategies rather than milking it for every last percent you can get.

Daggers should give you fast and easy low-powered crits. 2-hand maces should give you slow, heavy-duty attacks whose crits require major investments to reach max potential. This kind of balance can be achieved via diminishing returns formulas applied to the core combat engine, rather than retroactive nerfs to existing weapon stats.
Last edited by RogueMage on Aug 29, 2014, 5:43:23 PM
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RogueMage wrote:
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RagnarokChu wrote:
Reality is nerfing daggers still makes them the best weapon, and if you gut them then the fastest weapon will win.

Not when you consider the indirect benefits of diminishing returns formulas. With the current unrestricted mechanics, the optimal choice is to max crit chance and multiplier on the fastest weapon with the highest base crit chance. Consequently, you grab as many crit nodes as you possibly can and devote your entire build to maxing out your crit potential. This is a recipe for single-minded builds that shun diversity.

With diminishing returns formulas, the value of a weapon with a high base crit chance is that it will reach max crit levels with far fewer crit nodes than other weapons. This opens up your build to the potential for combining crit with other synergistic skills, broadening the build diversity of the game. It then becomes advisable to use cherry-picking Skill Tree strategies rather than milking it for every last percent you can get.

Daggers should give you fast and easy low-powered crits. 2-hand maces should give you slow, heavy-duty attacks whose crits require major investments to reach max potential. This kind of balance can be achieved via diminishing returns formulas applied to the core combat engine, rather than retroactive nerfs to existing weapon stats.


The optimal choice after diminishing returns is still stack Crit/crit multiplier on the fastest weapon with the base crit chance, and after you are little over the cap you stack other multis such as more attack speed, weapon elemental damage ect all the way to flat damage if you must.

You are still milking it for every last percent you can get, that is what min-maxing is. Also what the hell is comboing crit with "other synergistic" skills. Crit combo with every single skill that can crit because it increases it's damage and applies the status effect automatically. It does not broaden build diversity because if you are intended to build more damage, outside stacking damage of your weapon type/category/elemental/physical type the only way to build from there is crit or attack speed.

All you are literally doing is putting a band-aid on a giant gaping wound, and it's the simple fact in an arpg system there are only so many ways you can increase damage in a "fair" (as oppose to everything is op) affix system (I can't find an ring that increase my fire damage by 200% but I cannot crit)

Once you max out every single base multiplier you go to secondary multipliers such as crit or secondary damage affixs on items.

If we cannot make it 100% balance in a fair system, then the best way is to give way for items and builds to compete with crits and not balance around all tier 1 6 affix mirror items with legacy thrown in.
Last edited by RagnarokChu on Aug 29, 2014, 6:02:58 PM
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RagnarokChu wrote:
If we cannot make it 100% balance in a fair system, then the best way is to give way for items and builds to compete with crits and not balance around all tier 1 6 affix mirror items with legacy thrown in.

This sounds a lot more reasonable than "why nerf? why not buff everything else?" ;)
Devolving Wilds
Land
“T, Sacrifice Devolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card and reveal it. Then shuffle your library.”
"
RogueMage wrote:
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Poutsos wrote:
While i agree with the diminishing returns idea as i have said in other posts, there is no 100% crit rate. The way accuracy works, for a perfect 95% crit+95% chance to hit, the final crit chance is 85%. On a realistic build with really good gear with 95% crit chance and 85% chance to hit, the final crit chance is 68%. Loath Bane is just too damn fast, so the non crits do not make much difference. But if you hard cap crit on 50%, even with 90% accuracy the final crit chance will be 40%, which will likely make daggers useless.

Good points, though I don't think a 40% effective crit rate would make daggers "useless". Perhaps useless for players looking for an overpowered BiS trophy to exploit, but it's plenty powerful for a build that uses crit to sporatically augment its mainline melee damage.


You have a point, and it would have been better this way, but the game design prohibits it. I know that cause i ve been playing crit dagger way before it was cool. For 1 and half year. When you go crit melee, the only thing that keeps you alive is your leech. Really, after so many points that you need to invest on crit, there is not much room for increasing your defenses. And daggers generaly do shit damage when they do not crit, so it's something that you will not be able to rely on anymore.
I am not gonna stand and tell you that Ci crit melee is not OP, cause it is. However it is not gamebreaking, like low life spectral throw used to be, and now it is dethroned in favour of low life wanders. For me crit dagger should always be the DPS route of the game, but other weapons should be just as good with the same currency investment, in different ways, like utility or survivability. I do not see that happening though.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/417287 - Poutsos Flicker Nuke Shadow
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RagnarokChu wrote:
You know there are no "weapons" in this game, just stat sticks that enables your attacks since you don't really do anything with the weapon that has any meaningful choice. Dagger doesn't do "pierce" damage over "smash" damage over the 2h hammer, skeletons don't take 80% less damage from daggers because they have no flesh and it just goes through the space between the ribs and so on.

Reality is nerfing daggers still makes them the best weapon, and if you gut them then the fastest weapon will win.


Lol that is so true. I love it how on dark souls there really is not a better weapon, cause there are so many factors to it. And it is really up to the player in the end to decide.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/417287 - Poutsos Flicker Nuke Shadow

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