Trade Hate: Which one takes more skill?

Yeah, I'm late to this thread. Not reading all 20 pages.

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rrtson wrote:

There's a lot of hate for trade. So much so, that I've realized it's affected the way people look at the process of acquiring items. Case in point: I often find it amusing that someone would actually congratulate me on a lucky drop, as if I had any sort of control over my windfall (beyond stacking a shit-ton of IIR/IIQ). In the same vein, I see certain people demanding a SFL (self-found league) which they claim will somehow make the game more fun and/or dependent on player skill/knowledge. So let me ask, if I wanted to acquire these 3 items:

Does it require more skill and/or knowledge about the game to:

• 1. Kill monsters for currency/items
• 2. Understand the currency/item market trends
• 3. Manage your "bankroll" to balance the risk/reward of buying/selling certain items
• 4. Successfully negotiate with other human players to strike a deal

or

• 1. Kill monsters, hoping for a lucky drop

On the one hand, I feel you're dumbing down the concept of skill in farming. It's not just "kill monsters hoping for a lucky drop." A more accurate description might be:

• 1. Understand build strengths/weaknesses and item market trends
• 2. Theorycraft a build to kill a certain subset of monsters as quickly as possible
• 3. Acquire "bare minimum" gear requirements through farming and/or trade
• 4. Reiterate testing on build to optimize performance
• 5. Kill monsters for currency/items

...which, of course, can feed right back into trading. There's a bit of a false dichotomy between the two, when really they're most often two different sides of the same coin.

On the other hand, although farming is indeed a bit more of a challenge than you make it out to be, it isn't as much of a challenge as trading. The reason is simple: it's the difference between PvP and PvE. The economy is a PvP activity and your competition is continually evolving. I'm not saying there isn't exploitative behavior, but it's similar to the concept of the day zero vulnerability in network security — the exploit is only effective for so long, and then the economy adapts, without any action required on GGG's part. Long-term, if you can maintain a 70/30 "win-loss" ratio in a PvP activity, you're doing very well.

I think this is the core of why there is such hate for trading. In a game where a PvE, always-winning, never-losing mentality is a big part of the game (heavily reinforced by stiff penalties for dying), an activity with such a substantial risk of defeat can be jarring to certain personality types. A lot of Path of Exile players are perfectionists with a strong fear of failure. I don't even mean that it a bad way; as far as I'm concerned, it's a valid psychological profile to tap into during game design. However, these types are going to have troubles with trading when it becomes difficult enough where they begin losing consistently; even an overall winning record (such as 70/30) would be likely seen as an overall failure, due to the aforementioned perfectionism. The feeling they are going to get afterwards is that it's "impossibly" difficult (having a 95% win rate in a PvP activity is exactly that) and that you need to be some kind of mutant to possibly enjoy or profit from such a thing... while at the same time going on about how powerful it is, due to their mental image of the fellow who achieves a 95% win rate (without considering just how unlikely that truly is).

The thing for you to understand is that rewarding skill is not some holy grail in game design which justifies any possible action. Although I understand that trading does require a great deal of skill to succeed in, it also leaves a very sour taste in the mouth of many dedicated PvE players. This isn't really an audience which GGG should be alienating, regardless of the reasons. This is why many games with economies offer alternative mechanics, such as crafting systems, to allow partial circumvention of trading challenges. (By the way, orbs are gambling, not crafting; vendor recipes are crafting, and unfortunately the main thing you craft in PoE are gambling materials.)

The thing is that these should be alternative systems, not trade replacement systems. Trade itself is a good thing, and unfortunately the most valid form of PvP in the game to date. It's a necessary outlet to give some of the PvP people something to enjoy, and it shouldn't be curbed because of the judgmental hatred of people whom were never intended to enjoy the system in the first place. The "pure farmers," the so-called "self-found," should probably have more tools in their hands than they do now, but this doesn't mean taking tools away from the traders.

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MierenEronaile wrote:

@rrtson

I can already do that, sure. I just cant have a ladder for it. I dont 'like' trade, but I would like to see a ladder of people who play self found. Easy enough for you to comprehend?

So you want a ladder of people who play self-found? That's great! I want a lot of things too!

What if I wanted a ladder showing people who only used Rare items? How about a ladder showing players who only use projectile skills? Or a league with fire skills only? Or how about a melee-only league? Mjolner-only league? Marauder-only league? Sure, why not all of them? Where do you even begin to draw the line with your ridiculous demands?

GGG's not going to waste their time creating silly shit just because certain people like you demand it.

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MierenEronaile wrote:

You have to read trade chat, basically. Congratulations.

LOL. That sentence alone shows how clueless you are about trading. If you think that's all it takes to be successful at trading, I highly recommend you watch a stream of top PoE players who actively trade: GhazzyTV, Hegemony

Prices are only the tip of the iceberg. Being able to successfully manage your bankroll to balance risk/reward in holding certain items, being able to craft items based on what's currently in-demand, being able to identify flavor-of-the-month playstyles, understanding the general metagame direction, and having the social aptitude to efficiently close trade deals all play a big part in the game of being successful at trading.

There are people in this game who know absolutely nothing about trading who get absolutely wrecked monetary-wise when they try to trade. So it's not as simple as you make it out to be.

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MierenEronaile wrote:

Yes, they can coexist, but that was not my example. My example was that some people will choose the route that has less monetary gain because they LIKE IT LESS. I was not saying anything about real life jobs being compared to grinding in the game. I was simply giving you an example of another situation where people choose the less 'profitable' route.

I still don't think you understand what "coexist" means. When have traders ever forced you to trade with them? If you don't enjoy trading, then don't trade. Like I said, you're asking GGG to create a separate planet for you self-found players. Are you really that afraid of trading where you can't play on the same league with people who trade?

@rrtson

I do want a ladder of such people. I also dont see the point of the rest of that paragraph. Maybe GGG wont, and that is their choice. That is not a reason for me not to TELL THEM I WANT ONE..

As to the second part of your reply.. Touche, and I apologize for that. I was just being a smartass, and obviously its more complicated than I implied. Its still 'EASIER' than farming for 10 times as long, however.

To the third part, you are still not understanding my example.

I did not mean to say anything about what you are talking about. I was replying to this.

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rrtson wrote:

If you could spend 100 hours trading to acquire gear that would take the equivalent of 1000 hours of "grinding", why wouldn't you? You just saved yourself 900 hours of unrewarding loot drops.

The reason why I would not trade and would instead grind for 1000 hours is because I do not ENJOY trade, and do enjoy grinding. Just like some people will turn down a higher paying job for a job they enjoy more.

Your point about asking for different worlds I do understand. The problem is in the scale of things. Asking for a different server to play on is not that big a deal, and if we dont get it im still fine with the game.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I think this is the core of why there is such hate for trading. In a game where a PvE, always-winning, never-losing mentality is a big part of the game (heavily reinforced by stiff penalties for dying), an activity with such a substantial risk of defeat can be jarring to certain personality types. A lot of Path of Exile players are perfectionists with a strong fear of failure.

So you are saying that the average League of Legends player would not hate trading D:? (They are used to 40-60% win ratios)

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rrtson wrote:

I still don't think you understand what "coexist" means. When have traders ever forced you to trade with them? If you don't enjoy trading, then don't trade. Like I said, you're asking GGG to create a separate planet for you self-found players. Are you really that afraid of trading where you can't play on the same league with people who trade?

With same reasoning one can remove hardcore league :).

It's been said to death, again, and again, and again... endlessly.

If A: Self Found players want their own league with modified drops

Then B: They want a game more like Diablo 3--and PoE does NOT need to go down that road. It would be a huge mistake.

Or

If A: Self Found players want a league with the same rules

Then B: There is nothing stopping them from doing so in existing leagues. There is no reason for GGG to bother with it.

The fact that you want a league of anti-social grinders with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (of the repetitive nature) holds no weight in trying to justify the creation of a SFL. There needs to be a clear advantage for the player base as a whole, and possibly for GGG monetarily.

This thread has debunked every argument pro-SFL players have put forth--as have many other threads. You guys need to come up with some better reasons than wanting to divide the player base.

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

The fact that you want a league of anti-social grinders with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (of the repetitive nature) holds no weight in trying to justify the creation of a SFL. There needs to be a clear advantage for the player base as a whole, and possibly for GGG monetarily.

So basically, you have decided that us wanting it because we enjoy it is not a good reason and we should fuck off.

Righteo, well now that I know your opinion on things can be summed up as 'this does not benefit me so it is not important' I am more convinced than ever I want to play in a league you are not in 0o.

Hell, you even had to imply we have a fucking mental disorder to try and enforce your point of view. Nice work.

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MierenEronaile wrote:

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

The fact that you want a league of anti-social grinders with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (of the repetitive nature) holds no weight in trying to justify the creation of a SFL. There needs to be a clear advantage for the player base as a whole, and possibly for GGG monetarily.

So basically, you have decided that us wanting it because we enjoy it is not a good reason and we should fuck off.

Righteo, well now that I know your opinion on things can be summed up as 'this does not benefit me so it is not important' I am more convinced than ever I want to play in a league you are not in 0o.

Hell, you even had to imply we have a fucking mental disorder to try and enforce your point of view. Nice work.

I didn't have to do anything, but it illustrates how ridiculous the SFL side of the argument is.

Also, your lack of understanding of my argument does you discredit. My side of the argument is that it does not benefit the player base as a whole--or GGG--so there's no reason for them to bother. It only benefits a small portion of the player base, and it's too small to justify the creation of a new league (unlike Hardcore, which is a massive portion of the player base).

Edit: Hardcore is justified by more than the number of players that want it, btw. It is industry standard that ARPGs have this alternate mode: D2, D3, Torchlight 1/2, etc. If you really want to play SF, do so in the existing leagues, or play TL1 (which has no multiplayer without mods) or D3 (which has no trading and is an incredibly dull game).

Ohh, I understand just fine that if not enough of us want it it should not happen. That is so blatantly obvious it does not count as an 'argument' against or for it. Its just a necessity to get one.

What I do understand is that some people are violently against it for no particularly good reason. Also, how does it illustrate how ridiculous the SFL side of the argument is? Its ridiculous because you think we all have a mental disorder? If we do, are WE ridiculous because you think we have a mental disorder? Are you having fun randomly insulting an X sized portion of the player base? I feel fairly safe in assuming you consider those terms insulting anyway.

Considering that, are you sure you dont see removing the anti social people with mental disorders from your league a benefit to the whole? Id have thought people like you would be HAPPIER that way tbh.

(If you can not tell, I find your insinuation that everyone who wants SFL to be both anti social(even though SFL says NOTHING about playing in groups) both offensive and infinitely more ridiculous than our arguments FOR SFL)

Frankly, it doesn't matter if you find it insulting or what you think I'm implying. You have made it clear you won't respond to logic through your willful ignorance of every valid point made in this thread up until now, so there's no reason for anyone to listen to your side of the argument. It's like trying to debate evolution with a theist; it's pointless. Until you are ready to make it a two-way street and actually address the counter-points, all you have left is, "but I want it." Lots of people want lots of things for this game, but until you can provide a good reason for them to be made reality, no, GGG should continue to ignore them.