Is Molten Strike too powerful as a starter's gem?

i thought conc effect applies to 'blob' dmg as well - this is 50% more multi

Iron Grip allows for double dip of str (initial hit + Iron Gripped projectiles)

and multistrike with 9 projectiles smooths out the rng curve

my limited experience with it is that balls land when they need to (rare fight) and when they dont land you dont care anyway (lone trash mob in lvl 10 area you ought be skipping anyway)

Three Dragons + Static blows perma triple shock stacks as an icing on the goodnes cake

in marauder section there are very very detailed math analysis of MS and general consensus is that this gem is above the power curve

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SVD wrote:

i'd like to have a detailed comparison :)

Check out PoE streams on twitch and count moltenstrikers, that's all the comparison you need, people don't mess around in races, they go for the best price/performance ratio.

But ok, why not, it's interesting.

First it's important to analyze molten strike properly.

It has the main area of radius 20, projectile splash radius is estimated to be 8.
Coverage factor for one projectile is 'fireball area'/'main area', so it's 64/281=22%, so chance to hit one area unit with a projectile would be 22,7%.
Now, if a humanoid enemy has his model radius of 2, that's 4 area units so the chance to get hit would roll for 4 adjacent numbers instead of one so it would be somewhat higher, should be 24,1%.
Now, if we roll it three times for three projectiles the chance to get hit for a humanoid enemy to get hit at least once would be 57,3%, of which 41% would be one hit, 15% would be two hits, and 1,3% would be all three hits, so when we crunch all that we get 0,75% of an extra hit.
For a big enemy the chance would be significantly higher, if we assume they got a model radius of 4 units they'd have 74% chance to get hit at least once, and getting 104% of an extra hit.

So, Molten strike does 120% normal damage to single target + 0,75% of 72%, which is 174%, the most of any converted damage skill, plus there's also the free area damage which scales extremely well with some multiplicative supports like conc, point blank and PPAD, of which one is also available as a keystone.

Actually, as far as converted damage skills go the competition is piss-poor
Glacial is terribly weapon-restricted and that non-crit freeze chance is hardly a selling point.
Infernal also has the additional area effect, but you have to kill to get it, it's terribly hard to scale, and it can't trigger life on hit, it's also weapon-restricted.
Lighting strike is useless as an area gem unless heavily supported with some expensive supports that also neuter its damage, which makes it hard to sustain, the only advantage is damage type.

Now, skills that aren't converted offer leeching advantage but usually need an extra support to reach the useability of molten, and it's not until late game that they really start to catch up.

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raics wrote:

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SVD wrote:

i'd like to have a detailed comparison :)

Check out PoE streams on twitch and count moltenstrikers, that's all the comparison you need, people don't mess around in races, they go for the best price/performance ratio.

But ok, why not, it's interesting.

First it's important to analyze molten strike properly.

It has the main area of radius 20, projectile splash radius is estimated to be 8.
Coverage factor for one projectile is 'fireball area'/'main area', so it's 64/281=22%, so chance to hit one area unit with a projectile would be 22,7%.
Now, if a humanoid enemy has his model radius of 2, that's 4 area units so the chance to get hit would roll for 4 adjacent numbers instead of one so it would be somewhat higher, should be 24,1%.
Now, if we roll it three times for three projectiles the chance to get hit for a humanoid enemy to get hit at least once would be 57,3%.
For a big enemy the chance would be significantly higher, if we assume they got a model radius of 6 units they'd have 74% chance to get hit.

So, Molten strike does 120% normal damage to single target + 57% of 60%, which is 154%, the most of any converted damage skill, plus there's also the free area damage which scales extremely well with some multiplicative supports like conc, point blank and PPAD, of which one is also available as a keystone.

Actually, as far as converted damage skills go the competition is piss-poor
Glacial is terribly weapon-restricted and that non-crit freeze chance is hardly a selling point.
Infernal also has the additional area effect, but you have to kill to get it, it's terribly hard to scale, and it can't trigger life on hit, it's also weapon-restricted.
Lighting strike is useless as an area gem unless heavily supported with some expensive supports that also neuter its damage, which makes it hard to sustain, the only advantage is damage type.

Now, skills that aren't converted offer leeching advantage but usually need an extra support to reach the useability of molten, and it's not until late game that they really start to catch up.

the bolded part is a very very gross simplification - GH has a freeze chance but what sells it is the shattering chance. it is a mega-culling strike when coupled with melee splash + ele prolif. GH is an underestimated skill imo..

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sidtherat wrote:

the bolded part is a very very gross simplification - GH has a freeze chance but what sells it is the shattering chance. it is a mega-culling strike when coupled with melee splash + ele prolif. GH is an underestimated skill imo.

It is somewhat underestimated, but shattering is pretty useless and most of our usual dps-boosting techniques don't really scale well with freezing, things like splash and multistrike, hardly anybody needs freezing mooks. And it's still way too weapon restrictive to rise above underdog status.

Seems numbers for MS are even better, I forgot to include chance for multiple hits into calculation, silly me.

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sidtherat wrote:

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raics wrote:

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SVD wrote:

i'd like to have a detailed comparison :)

Check out PoE streams on twitch and count moltenstrikers, that's all the comparison you need, people don't mess around in races, they go for the best price/performance ratio.

But ok, why not, it's interesting.

First it's important to analyze molten strike properly.

It has the main area of radius 20, projectile splash radius is estimated to be 8.
Coverage factor for one projectile is 'fireball area'/'main area', so it's 64/281=22%, so chance to hit one area unit with a projectile would be 22,7%.
Now, if a humanoid enemy has his model radius of 2, that's 4 area units so the chance to get hit would roll for 4 adjacent numbers instead of one so it would be somewhat higher, should be 24,1%.
Now, if we roll it three times for three projectiles the chance to get hit for a humanoid enemy to get hit at least once would be 57,3%.
For a big enemy the chance would be significantly higher, if we assume they got a model radius of 6 units they'd have 74% chance to get hit.

So, Molten strike does 120% normal damage to single target + 57% of 60%, which is 154%, the most of any converted damage skill, plus there's also the free area damage which scales extremely well with some multiplicative supports like conc, point blank and PPAD, of which one is also available as a keystone.

Actually, as far as converted damage skills go the competition is piss-poor
Glacial is terribly weapon-restricted and that non-crit freeze chance is hardly a selling point.
Infernal also has the additional area effect, but you have to kill to get it, it's terribly hard to scale, and it can't trigger life on hit, it's also weapon-restricted.
Lighting strike is useless as an area gem unless heavily supported with some expensive supports that also neuter its damage, which makes it hard to sustain, the only advantage is damage type.

Now, skills that aren't converted offer leeching advantage but usually need an extra support to reach the useability of molten, and it's not until late game that they really start to catch up.

the bolded part is a very very gross simplification - GH has a freeze chance but what sells it is the shattering chance. it is a mega-culling strike when coupled with melee splash + ele prolif. GH is an underestimated skill imo..

Yeah, Long story short Molten Strike rng based.

Infernal Blow scales with monster's life for the most part and everything else that scales Molten Strike (Aside from pb and conc also ppda which there's hardly room for in most viable set-ups) also with Q% the clear speed + Q% melee splash is pretty high up there due to the free 40% increased AoE.

Lightning strike has the benefit of being ranged and significantly shocking without having to use a gear slot.

Glacial Hammer super culls, freezes and chills.

As for MS having more conversion you have to factor in the mechanics of other skills as well, Lightning Strike in particular for it's free shocking with static and the fire damage from exploding IB bodies is 100% fire damage, which scales double dippingly as it were with increased fire damage : ) ... OF course exploding someone requires someone to explode so it's not effective scaling vs bosses and such, not as much as Molten Strike, but the clear speed for IB overall is just going to be stronger simply because it has a massive AoE and boom boom.

It's difficult to tell really but I know for a fact that Molten Strike Is only going to be the new double strike if anything. I'm not sure if anything else can come close to making MS dmg obsolete. As of now, It seems like DS is in the middle being the average dmg output of molten strike.

to not derail even futher

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Do_odle wrote:

Yeah, Long story short Molten Strike rng based.

Yup, and that makes it perfectly suited for PoE, two ducks in a pond, two bullets in a mag, two cannibal midgets in a fat guy's ribcage. Of course, attack speeds we attain throw all that nice rng out of the window but we can still imagine it's there if it makes us happy, and devs obviously think it does.

Direct damage scaling of infernal is fine but explosion is not an attack so it doesn't really scale all that well.

Yeah, sid, I know the skill is great when you build for it, that's what makes it niche, The thread is about molten strike being the new butter, every fridge has it (except in the east probably, but they're a bit strange there).

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raics wrote:

Yeah, sid, I know the skill is great when you build for it, that's what makes it niche, The thread is about molten strike being the new butter, every fridge has it (except in the east probably, but they're a bit strange there).

Point Blank is Niche, too. Mltn is crap without the proper niche'ing of it, point blank conc aof fire pen other stuff.

but...

Fine, I'll get on board and say it's the strongest single target melee attack gem in the game right now with the right build.

We need counter-balancing...

Inb4 Shiver Strike -

Shiver Strike
Aoe, Degen, Duration, Attack, Cold, Melee, Physical.
8 Mana Cost
Strike an enemy or the ground with your weapon, dealing damage and freezing the terrain creating chilled ground that damages enemies as it forces giant ice pikes to erupt out of the ground in random areas around you.

Deals 70% Physical Damage.
Converts 70% of Physical Damage dealt to Cold Damage
Frozen Terrain deals 30% of the initial cold damage every second to chilled enemies.
Ice Pikes deal 30% less dmg.
Ice pikes have a 30% chance to freeze.

Finally, a Degen for cold.

lol..

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raics wrote:

^long statement of comparing strengths of one skill with weaknesses of others

the delayed impact is quite the downside to the skill that you seem to ignore.

with infernal blow you hit a group twice and half the screen dies in a single frame.

numbers don't matter there. the skill is the most damaging attackbased skill if you hit a large target over a longer period in time.

maybe a third of the monsters in the game is larger than the player
95% of the content involves killing masses of scattered enemies in quick succession.

molten strike is just horrible at cleaning up the remains.


i agree on glacial though, the effect is pretty nice but you have to sacrifice at least 1 if not 2 supports to make it work, and there goes all the potential deeps


another important distinction to me is your calculation of average dps.
its not 154% even if i know what you mean when calculating it.
it is 120 or 180.
a lot of the time it is 120 when 150 would have killed the enemy and often it will be 180 when 120 would have been enough.

this i realized when playing kunkka in some pubs. its not 20% chance to crit. it is "if i crit the game is over and if not i will try again in 15 seconds".
it is so much more dependent on the single instance of dealing damage than the average because the average will on average often not do what you want.

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Do_odle wrote:

Point Blank is Niche, too. Mltn is crap without the proper niche'ing of it, point blank conc aof fire pen other stuff.

but...

Fine, I'll get on board and say it's the strongest single target melee attack gem in the game right now with the right build.

It is a bit niche as a keystone, yes, but frankly, the skill itself aside, I'm thrilled we finally got a good reason to use PB support, 40% damage multiplier on average for just 20% more mana - sign me in.

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Do_odle wrote:

We need counter-balancing...

Inb4 Shiver Strike -

Shiver Strike
Aoe, Degen, Duration, Attack, Cold, Melee, Physical.
8 Mana Cost
Strike an enemy or the ground with your weapon, dealing damage and freezing the terrain creating chilled ground that damages enemies as it forces giant ice pikes to erupt out of the ground in random areas around you.

Deals 70% Physical Damage.
Converts 70% of Physical Damage dealt to Cold Damage
Frozen Terrain deals 30% of the initial cold damage every second to chilled enemies.
Ice Pikes deal 30% less dmg.
Ice pikes have a 30% chance to freeze.

And a whole lot of it. I proposed a rework of weapon elemental skills once, in regard to stat and weapon alignment, you'd be surprised how well it can fit. I suppose they're planning for one more cold and lighting melee skill.

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Do_odle wrote:

another important distinction to me is your calculation of average dps.
its not 154% even if i know what you mean when calculating it.
it is 120 or 180.
a lot of the time it is 120 when 150 would have killed the enemy and often it will be 180 when 120 would have been enough.

Yeah, that's whats great about probability calculations, not a lot of people around willing to check is it wrong :)
The bit over 120% is actually a chance the enemy you struck receives more damage in form of additional hit(s), the number looks alright to me.

Yeah I'm ignoring the delay, you can't really base your dps calculations on assumption that enemies will die in one hit (and they most likely won't, especially in parties). That's the same as basing your survivability calcs on being oneshot regularly.