projectile damage

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raics wrote:

[
There's a bit of an error at start. Damage increases are always additive, yes, but within a damage dealing stage, so the bonus will be multiplicative because curse is affecting the enemy, not you, and direct damage you did to the target will be:

100 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.24) * (1 + 0.34)

i started to tell you, "I think you are wrong", but now I understand that the curse affects the enemy and not your damage.

the same thing with DoT. The DoT modification are affecting the way the enemy takes damage and not how you deal the damage. That's why projectile damage is a stronger modifier when used with puncture than physical damage nodes.

now i understand (i hope) :-)

thank you very much for your help.


edit: this is a big deal. a puncture build is truly better off using projectile damage nodes instead of phy damage.

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plasticeyes wrote:

a puncture build is truly better off using projectile damage nodes instead of phy damage.

I think you missunderstood what Mark said.

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plasticeyes wrote:

the same thing with DoT. The DoT modification are affecting the way the enemy takes damage and not how you deal the damage. That's why projectile damage is a stronger modifier when used with puncture than physical damage nodes.

Actually they aren't, only the '40% inc DoT' part on vulnerability curse affect the way enemy takes damage over time.

It goes like this:
- you hit an enemy for some physical damage increased by all your bonuses that affect direct physical damage of your attack
- direct damage you dealt is then increased by vulnerability's 'increased physical damage taken' penalty and shock stacks, if any (effectively multiplying the damage you dealt)
- a percentage of physical damage the enemy took counts as base damage for a bleeding debuff applied on the enemy and gets increased by any projectile, DoT, or generic physical damage increases you may have, that gives you damage per second your bleeding debuff deals to the enemy (now DoT bonus applies instead of bow damage, it's a DoT effect now and it has nothing to do with initial attack anymore once it determines base bleed damage)
- then vulnerability curse increases the damage bleeding deals to the enemy by 40% so you finally get the bleeding damage per second that enemy takes

So, in short:
all your increases that affect attack damage -> direct damage dealt
vulnerability physical damage taken -> damage taken (effectively a multiplier)
all your increases minus bow damage applied to resulting bleeding -> bleeding damage dealt (effectively a multiplier)
vulnerability DoT taken -> bleeding damage taken (effectively a multiplier)

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Malone wrote:

I think you missunderstood what Mark said.

He probably meant 'bow physical damage nodes' in which case he's absolutely right.

Thanks Mark. I understand now. It was your statement saying it wasn't "again" that got me confused. The use of the word "again" makes sense to me since the Projectile node made the bleeding higher twice, the first time by increasing the hit the bleed is based off of and then also the bleed itself. I understand that the hit and the DoT are separate damages, but they are not completely independent of each other.

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mark1030 wrote:

I understand that the hit and the DoT are separate damages, but they are not completely independent of each other.

They aren't completely independent but they are completely separate damage instances and nothing in the game rules prevents them from interacting that way.

If you think it's OP, well, bleed has never been an overly powerful effect when used on enemies, and ignite also works like that with fire damage increases (and possibly projectile or AoE if it was dealt that way).

As to why was it done like that, I can assume it was because fire resistance always applied 'twice' and there's no other way to do it because we have non-ignite sources of burn, so for consistency sake 'pseudo double dip' system got implemented, it was either that or make ignite penetrate fire resist. Personally, I'm not overly offended by all this, it makes about as much sense as it doesn't.

the reason why burning is highly superior to bleed is that it can proliferate. And the fact that mobs dont have to move to do max damage.

I don't think it's OP and I wasn't complaining about it. I just wanted to understand it.. I was just confused because Projectile Damage was factored into the DoT portion twice but the use of the word 'again' was considered misleading.

so what i get from this, is 'physical damage with bows'
ofc increases the initial hit of puncture and thus the base DoT.

but does NOT apply to the DoT thus increasing the bleed a second time.

you use an attack with a bow, which shoots a projectile attack, which creates a dot.
so projectile damage applies to the DoT, but '(physical)damage with bows' does not.

so the game engine, looking at a projectile mid flight,
may not actually know if it was shot by a bow or wand.
or something.

Is this double dipping unique to puncture and bleed? or is it for all kinds of damage?
I know burning double dips on the fire damage passives, but doesn't use the aoe passives (I think).

What about adders touch? If I used a melee skill with melee splash and concentrated effect, get a crit, does the adders touch damage benefit from the concentrated effect bonus because it was inflicted by a AOE skill as well as the initial hit being increased? i.e. would it double dip?

Normally this sort of thing can be pretty easy to work out, but having dot's benefit from modifiers that affect the skill they were applied with seems..... interesting.

Interesting concept. it'd put a whole new outlook on adders touch and snakebite.