A mindless and pointless grind and level progression.

I'm making this thread to share my views on the current gaming industry's standards, MMORPG's and games in general.

I've spent approximately 6-7 years on World of Warcraft, and up until not too long ago... I enjoyed it. I've tried many other MMORPGs along the way, and enjoyed some of them less, but overall I still thought well of some (Guild Wars and EVE, just to name a few).

What I came to realize, though, is that right now (except maybe Guild Wars, where PVP is available from the beginning) every MMORPG is a mindless grind. I don't care if they are providing a fun quest system (which isn't fun... it just has bunch of grab this and bring it here or kill this for no reason quests), or tons of items (which won't matter in a few levels) and dungeons along the way... All, or at least most, of MMORPGs these days are about the end game. It took a while, apparently, but once this theory clicked in my head, I realized that that golden sword of chopping their heads off does not matter at all at lvl 30, because I'll be lvl 40 in a few hours and all the quests along the way to maximum level are simply fillers. Take a look at WoW, for example. Unless they are a new player, no one really plays through the game, they all rush through to get to the end content as quickly as possible, because no one cares about the content in between. It's simply a filler and the only thing that stands between them and the end-game content.

So, why even play? When you don't care about 60% of the game, and just want to get to that last 40%, what's the point? I'm not sure, but apparently it's still good enough for most people, because millions of them are doing the same routine over and over.

Guild Wars 2 offers to change all of that, and from what I've seen and read, it looks promissing. The industry leaders are finally realizing that they games have to be dynamic and feel fresh every time you play it and every level you play. I want to feel immersed and interested in every part of the game. I don't want to feel like I HAVE to get to that last lvl. They say that in Guild Wars 2, you won't have the urge to get to the last level, because you'll be way too busy with having fun playing the game, not just rushing through the content.

"Well, what about Diablo 2?" some would say. Somehow, it felt different to me. You know how in most of singleplayer games you're just playing the game and you're curious about the end of the game, but you're not trying to rush through the content to get to that end... because you're PLAYING the game. Titan Quest, Torchlight, Dungeon Siege series... I was never tempted to get to the end as soon as possible so that I can run through the same area a thousand times to just enjoy that part of the game -- I was just simply playing through and having fun. It was the same for me with Diablo 2 for the most part.

I say for the most part, simply due to the fact that after about a decade of playing Diablo 2... well, there's only so much enjoyment you can do without a lot of added content. So, by the end you end up rushing through that content simply to get your guy to around 90 and try out that new build and PvP. However, simply due to the sheer enjoyment Diablo 2 brought from playing it, it was never a dreading task to make a level 1, and play through the game without being rushed. My buddies and I used to do it all the time. It was fun and we did not care how quickly we'll get to 99 or the Act 5 of Hell... it did not matter.

Take League of Legends, for example. It does not matter, at least to me, if your summoner is level 30 or lvl 5 -- you can have just as much fun on either level. The gameplay is just as enjoyable on any summoner level.

"Well, you're comparing MMOs and ARPGs versus MMORPGs!" So? Let's take Navy Field or Tank World for example. Those 2 games are MMOs in a similar design to League of Legends. 2 teams and 1 team has to stay alive. However, those 2 games are a mindless grind because you are not going to have as much fun at lvl 1 as you are at lvl so and so. So, it's not about the genre, it's about a well developed game.

So, what is my point? Well, my point is simple -- the POE dev team should try to ensure that every part of the game, be it Act 2 Cruel, or Act 5 Ruthless, be it lvl 1 of your new character, or be it level 80... it should all feel the same -- fun. That is why I don't care for people that want the exp rate to be high so that they can gain levels faster.... why? Why would you want to gain levels faster? Why does it matter? I'll tell you why it matters to most players --- because all the levels except the last is just crap. That's it, crap. It's pointless, mindless and simply crap. If you're trying to rush to that last level and don't care about things in-between (unless of course you just want to have fun rushing through, and hey, that's fun SOMETIMES too), what's the point of playing all those levels? Doesn't it seem like a waste? And I'm sure the dev team would try to accomplish that even without me saying anything... I just hope that comes true. I just simply don't want another game in the sea of mindless time-wasters -- games full of pointless crap that just simply gets in the way of the end-content.

I hear ya. Since I came to this website, and went into Alpha, I'm sort of a lone wolf figthing many who fight back to protect bullshits and prevent fresh content.

It really comes down to the options at each level, and how interesting the quests are. A good loot system will make it more interesting if people are equipping their characters based on certain build limitations etc.

You are 100% right . And I trust PoE will fresh at all levels and new skill gem will make cute smile on your face :D ARPG MMORPG all is about grind but point is in make grind at lvl 1 funny as on lvl 80 .

So what your trying to tell us is that most mmorpg's have a story built into every quest chain and that most players loose interest after like the first 2 quest chains?

I think game dev's are under the illusion that having 600 people in town all at once gives players an impression of a 'player community'. It does not and wont ever unless its a mass war (like aika).

Anyone can design a few quests that are like "zomfg my cat is missing, go find him."

D2 was good because it had the epic gameplay, plus it was story driven.
If you take away that vital aspect, youve suddenly got players randomly running around killing shit pointlessly. You feel no attachment to the game except to get better gear.


Anyone know if PoE is story driven or just a bunch of random quests?

And that's why I hate WoW :D

Diablo 2's early levels wasnt crap and the game was fully enjoyable from level 1 to 90.
Same with Titan Quest.
Same with Torchlight.
Same with the earlier Dungeon Sieges (dont mention 3, or i will rage).

Why would PoE be any different? It is a hack n slash, like the games i listed above. It is not League of Legends nor is it World of Warcraft or Guild Wars.

I agree with your WoW statement, but i dont see how it is relevant here. I dont think i have played a single 'good' hack n slash game that has had the WoW mindless-level-rushing feel. Never.
So why would this game? I highly doubt it.

I agree with Baleur...

Btw, I'm not against mindless grinding :P

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Baleur wrote:

Diablo 2's early levels wasnt crap and the game was fully enjoyable from level 1 to 90.
Same with Titan Quest.
Same with Torchlight.
Same with the earlier Dungeon Sieges (dont mention 3, or i will rage).

Why would PoE be any different? It is a hack n slash, like the games i listed above. It is not League of Legends nor is it World of Warcraft or Guild Wars.

I agree with your WoW statement, but i dont see how it is relevant here. I dont think i have played a single 'good' hack n slash game that has had the WoW mindless-level-rushing feel. Never.
So why would this game? I highly doubt it.

Why? Because Dungeon Siege 3 failed and countless other ARPGs that didn't get the formula right. I just don't want POE to join their ranks. As I've mentioned above... just because the game is in the same genre, it doesn't mean it'll succeed. Take a look at EVE -- an amazing space game... just too damn demanding for a lot of people, but nevertheless... amazing. I've played Black Prophecy, and they have a long way to go before they get to same level of design and gameplay (it has fairly good immersion in the beginning, but then it's a grinder). Dungeons and Dragons Online... wow, a fantastic MMORPG. It feels like a puzzle MMMORPG, I love it. Wish it was more dynamic, so that re-playability was better... But then it tries to counter that issue with having difficulty levels for every dungeon. It's the same with every genre... shooters, MMO's, ARPGs, RPGs, MMORPGs... you name it -- there are good games, okay games and wtf.

"

I agree with Baleur...

Btw, I'm not against mindless grinding :P

That's the thing, like I said earlier... it appears a lot of people don't. I've seen posts on forums where people are asking about a good free-to-play grinder. They don't want quests, story or motives to kill 1,000,000 jumping mushrooms... they just want to grind. I find it odd.

Agreed.