Why limit desecrate and not Det Dead?

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Awfeel wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

Detonate Dead is a near worthless skill to use, unless you use it on a rare or unique monster.

I'm not sure whether or not you're being just as sarcastic as I originally was...


Let's for a minute say that you aren't.

.18 Original damage. 1 being 100% mob health.

There is 84% PURE FIRE damage in the tree in witch / templar area.

Ok so that's .18(1.84) = .3312

We are to assume that the mobs resist is 75%? thats INSANEly high to assume but sure np.

We can also assume we are dual curse and cast flammability and ele weakness (0 Qual) Fair assumption.

Thats 75% (Base) - 49% (Flam) - 49% (Ele W) = -19% or a 1.19 additive multiplier.

.18(.19) + .3312 = .3654

Now lets also assume we forgot fire penetration right?

thats another .18(.35) = .063

.063 + .3654 = .4284 (Total so far w/ Detonate Dead, Fire Pen two link w/ 2 curses)

Let's go ahead and also assume that you have it linked to increased AoE and decide you want the nodes in the tree for that 20% increased damage for area and get all those area nodes, it needs to be big right?

.18(.2) = .036 + .4284 = .4644

We might as well even just stop here and add conc effect for a FOUR LINK.

Since conc effect is a MORE multiplier it stacks multiplicatively.

.4644 (1.69) = .784836 or 78.5% Mob health in fire damage AFTER resists. This is assuming you ONLY FOUR LINK.

Now, this is assuming you aren't using chance to ignite. Which, with prolif would mean over 100% mob health after res.

And yet, it's useless?

You better start believing in troll threads bro. You're in one.


EDIT** This is WITHOUT quality gems as well.

One problem with your "maths". Fire Penetration, without quality as you say, only penetrates resistance. If I recall correctly, penetration is calculated after enemy resistances with curses. Seeing how their resistances are lowered to 0% or less, Fire Penetration does nothing for this unless you have quality. I might be wrong, I'm not sure. But it is logical to assume this.

Now, let's say that your math is correct and you deal 78.5% of the corpse's damage as fire after all calculations. Enemies only take 78.5% of the target's life in damage. Some creatures have more life and some creatures have less life, making some corpses much less effective against others. This is assuming that corpses are below the target.

Huge disadvantage if there aren't any corpses around to detonate, which some of the time there aren't any corpses.

Another disadvantage is when you've consumed all of the corpses. What do you do then? Desecrate sounds like a good idea, but we don't know the life of those corpses, and that will most likely be based on the gem's level.

Yet again, there are skills with many times the damage with much faster attack and cast rates. Fireball would easily surpass this. Fireball can be used with many more supports to drastically increase its damage far beyond what you could get for Detonate Dead.

Troll thread, of course you're a troll. Did you really have to imply it so obviously?

Fireball + LMP + Fire Penetration + Faster Projectiles / Culling Strike / Concentrated Effect > Detonate Dead + anything. Especially if you get faster casting, which helps Fireball a lot.

I love this thread:) detonate dead sux!! Please buff it.

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Awfeel wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

Detonate Dead is a near worthless skill to use, unless you use it on a rare or unique monster.

I'm not sure whether or not you're being just as sarcastic as I originally was...


Let's for a minute say that you aren't.

.18 Original damage. 1 being 100% mob health.

There is 84% PURE FIRE damage in the tree in witch / templar area.

Ok so that's .18(1.84) = .3312

We are to assume that the mobs resist is 75%? thats INSANEly high to assume but sure np.

We can also assume we are dual curse and cast flammability and ele weakness (0 Qual) Fair assumption.

Thats 75% (Base) - 49% (Flam) - 49% (Ele W) = -19% or a 1.19 additive multiplier.

.18(.19) + .3312 = .3654

Now lets also assume we forgot fire penetration right?

thats another .18(.35) = .063

.063 + .3654 = .4284 (Total so far w/ Detonate Dead, Fire Pen two link w/ 2 curses)

Let's go ahead and also assume that you have it linked to increased AoE and decide you want the nodes in the tree for that 20% increased damage for area and get all those area nodes, it needs to be big right?

.18(.2) = .036 + .4284 = .4644

We might as well even just stop here and add conc effect for a FOUR LINK.

Since conc effect is a MORE multiplier it stacks multiplicatively.

.4644 (1.69) = .784836 or 78.5% Mob health in fire damage AFTER resists. This is assuming you ONLY FOUR LINK.

Now, this is assuming you aren't using chance to ignite. Which, with prolif would mean over 100% mob health after res.

And yet, it's useless?

You better start believing in troll threads bro. You're in one.


EDIT** This is WITHOUT quality gems as well.

For starters:

Every single mkb with fire res inherent has 75% fire res and every res all has 40%.

Apart from the above, yeah with dual curse you destroy white mobs. Big deal.

Let's see a rare mob:
Let's assume that it is ONLY double stacked res ( no aura, just inherent+res)

Now it has 115% res.
Your 2lvl 20 curses do -24% resist each, because rates only have halh penalty from curses:

115-48= 67. -35 penetrTion

A final resist of about 32%

So, a character that has spent every single fire passive in the tree, has dual curse, and casts 2 sells can do SOME damage, far far less than say a random build with Bor+face breakers+megi

Don't see any problem.

If anything, dd needs to be buffed similar to attack skills:
Remove the stupid physical damage and put in a 3% fire damage/gem lvl.


P.s. and if your problem is that it can be used like a lvl1 gem at areas 78lvl, then see every singhke attack gem in the game.

Are people this dense?

I was being sarcastic. I want them to fix desecrate lol

It was a subpar gem that was an ACCENT gem for builds and it caught a really weird nerf.

Yall make it sound like my post was thought out and well written.


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Side notes

Enemy resistances can go below 0%

Attack gems mostly are used at level 5 not 1 (assuming elemental)

Attack gems are used at level 20 for some (physical)

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Skycore, anyone who is a caster who isn't cursing is doing it wrong.

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Edit**

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FleepQc wrote:

I love this thread:) detonate dead sux!! Please buff it.

Bob gets me lol

Detonate Dead is really quite strong, strong enough that it was viable before desecrate. Before desecrate you still had to kill something first before you could use it which made it a bit clunky and situational. Now... well it's actually quite good. A properly built one will one shot whole rooms from afar in complete safety against everything but reflect.

Reflect is by the way about the only notable weakness to the skill. Sure it requires some setting up with curses to oneshot resistant mobs. But considering you could just cast it more than once this isn't really a problem.

Now one thing it has as an advantage over pretty much any other skill (at least spells) is that you don't need to level it up. This makes a potential 5/6l really cheap to use not to mention you usually only have to cast it once.

Sure I wouldn't put it on the level of flicker crit dagger or similary extreme dps builds, but it should be much easier to make, while also being more safe than most builds.

Whatever you may else say about DD, calling it weak or useless is wrong. Check it up on youtube or something if you are still in doubt.

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Zoroch wrote:

Detonate Dead is really quite strong, strong enough that it was viable before desecrate. Before desecrate you still had to kill something first before you could use it which made it a bit clunky and situational. Now... well it's actually quite good. A properly built one will one shot whole rooms from afar in complete safety against everything but reflect.

Reflect is by the way about the only notable weakness to the skill. Sure it requires some setting up with curses to oneshot resistant mobs. But considering you could just cast it more than once this isn't really a problem.

Now one thing it has as an advantage over pretty much any other skill (at least spells) is that you don't need to level it up. This makes a potential 5/6l really cheap to use not to mention you usually only have to cast it once.

Sure I wouldn't put it on the level of flicker crit dagger or similary extreme dps builds, but it should be much easier to make, while also being more safe than most builds.

Whatever you may else say about DD, calling it weak or useless is wrong. Check it up on youtube or something if you are still in doubt.

Perhaps you should read some of the posts, mine specifically, to see why it is weak. I consider all possible scenarios, which includes you having trouble with bodies or not having any. This means that Fireball is going to completely ROFLSTOMP your Detonate Dead.

I suggest that you consider the advantages and disadvantages of all skills. Sure, Detonate Dead does percent based damage and doesn't need to level to do the damage it needs, but it requires corpses and if someone is running a Devouring Totem or constantly resummons minions, then you become quite useless.

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Natharias wrote:

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Zoroch wrote:

Detonate Dead is really quite strong, strong enough that it was viable before desecrate. Before desecrate you still had to kill something first before you could use it which made it a bit clunky and situational. Now... well it's actually quite good. A properly built one will one shot whole rooms from afar in complete safety against everything but reflect.

Reflect is by the way about the only notable weakness to the skill. Sure it requires some setting up with curses to oneshot resistant mobs. But considering you could just cast it more than once this isn't really a problem.

Now one thing it has as an advantage over pretty much any other skill (at least spells) is that you don't need to level it up. This makes a potential 5/6l really cheap to use not to mention you usually only have to cast it once.

Sure I wouldn't put it on the level of flicker crit dagger or similary extreme dps builds, but it should be much easier to make, while also being more safe than most builds.

Whatever you may else say about DD, calling it weak or useless is wrong. Check it up on youtube or something if you are still in doubt.

Perhaps you should read some of the posts, mine specifically, to see why it is weak. I consider all possible scenarios, which includes you having trouble with bodies or not having any. This means that Fireball is going to completely ROFLSTOMP your Detonate Dead.

I suggest that you consider the advantages and disadvantages of all skills. Sure, Detonate Dead does percent based damage and doesn't need to level to do the damage it needs, but it requires corpses and if someone is running a Devouring Totem or constantly resummons minions, then you become quite useless.

im pretty sure that i saw someone posting Shrine clear with 6man party mobs SOLO with DD+Desacrate..

DD as a spell works EXACTLY the same in twilight strand lvl 1 and in Palace lvl 78. scaling is linear.

I wonder what's so compelling about Detonate Dead taking into account corpse life, to be honest.

Oh wait, because D2 did it, never mind.

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sidtherat wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

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Zoroch wrote:

Detonate Dead is really quite strong, strong enough that it was viable before desecrate. Before desecrate you still had to kill something first before you could use it which made it a bit clunky and situational. Now... well it's actually quite good. A properly built one will one shot whole rooms from afar in complete safety against everything but reflect.

Reflect is by the way about the only notable weakness to the skill. Sure it requires some setting up with curses to oneshot resistant mobs. But considering you could just cast it more than once this isn't really a problem.

Now one thing it has as an advantage over pretty much any other skill (at least spells) is that you don't need to level it up. This makes a potential 5/6l really cheap to use not to mention you usually only have to cast it once.

Sure I wouldn't put it on the level of flicker crit dagger or similary extreme dps builds, but it should be much easier to make, while also being more safe than most builds.

Whatever you may else say about DD, calling it weak or useless is wrong. Check it up on youtube or something if you are still in doubt.

Perhaps you should read some of the posts, mine specifically, to see why it is weak. I consider all possible scenarios, which includes you having trouble with bodies or not having any. This means that Fireball is going to completely ROFLSTOMP your Detonate Dead.

I suggest that you consider the advantages and disadvantages of all skills. Sure, Detonate Dead does percent based damage and doesn't need to level to do the damage it needs, but it requires corpses and if someone is running a Devouring Totem or constantly resummons minions, then you become quite useless.

im pretty sure that i saw someone posting Shrine clear with 6man party mobs SOLO with DD+Desacrate..

DD as a spell works EXACTLY the same in twilight strand lvl 1 and in Palace lvl 78. scaling is linear.

I have no doubt that DD can do that. But what I do doubt and debate is that it is weaker...oh, I already posted why. Perhaps you should read it.

However, DD only uses the regular health of mobs, not the increased life from party increases, which makes DD less and less effective the more players you have.

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Natharias wrote:

However, DD only uses the regular health of mobs, not the increased life from party increases, which makes DD less and less effective the more players you have.

this is the main problem, and it's hard to balance.

DD is a "threshold" spell. It works wonders when you reach a certain threshold, in between thresholds it doesn't make a differance.

p.e. going from 33% max health to 49% doesn't quite alters clear speed, going from 49% to 50% is a huge increase in it, and etc.

allowing DD to scale from party bonus to health would be insane, since you would oneshot eversingle mob in party maps. On the other hand, going from 100% kill to needing to blow up 4-5corpses is quite the hurdle.

a middleway solution that i think may work (and i'm actually slowly working towards it, if i even find enough time to play for a bit) is going for burn damage in parties.

sure, you don't 1hit ko everything, but killing packs in 3-4secs isn't bad imo.