Why limit desecrate and not Det Dead?

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Natharias wrote:

I'm not wrong about Fireball being better. Fireball does not require a corpse to be present, nor does it require a target to be over a certain area.

If you are playing solo, you MUST use another skill to create at least one corpse in order to use Detonate Dead. This means you need to use two or three sockets to use a skill strong enough to kill just one mob. That's quite a few sockets that could've been used for a proc combo, auras, utility skills, or simply a six-link if you use a weapon/shield. That's a huge disadvantage.[/quote]

You are wrong about it being better (for pack clearing) than DD. Fireball clears slow as balls if you don't aim for crit, and if you aim for crit quality is useless. If you try to do the ignite-prolif shenanigans with fireball you're just playing with a very very bad fire trap/DD.

You are putting WAY too much emphasis on creating at least one corpse. One level 60ish desecrate corpse is enough to boom the room using DD. It may take 2 of them in higher level maps. Once you have an on-level corpse created everything else just kind of dies.

It's not a huge disadvantage. Your utility skill can easily create at least one corpse...or you could just use desecrate and get 3 at a single cast. Desecrate should be scaled up to zone-level IMO. It should be restricted to gem req. level OR zone level, whichever is higher. Restricting it solely to zone level is a mistake and very annoying IMO.

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Let's say corpses have about 6,000 life. Detonate Dead does 1,080 base fire damage. Detonate Dead does not scale up with levels, except for the tiny bit of physical damage that it deals. So a level twenty Detonate Dead does a maximum of 1,080 fire damage and 123 physical damage. A level twenty Fireball does a maximum of 553. Another thing to note is that Fireball greatly increases in potential when you use weapons with gem level mods, and three levels can greatly increase it's damage potential. Using a Searing Touch staff is just about the best thing you can do, as ignite is the best thing fire spells can do, regardless of which spell you use.

DD scales linearly and will ALWAYS have a base damage of 18% monster health. Fireball base is usually less than 10% of monster health. If you run low maps/zones then fireball will usually be a better choice, but as soon as you get above 70 maps or so, DD becomes the clear winner.

That 1080 damage is straight up (not a range) and will always be higher than fireball's average damage. It would require empower shenanigans to get it above 22, which has a base of 662 TOP END, with an average about 570. So in your scenario where the mob has 6k HP (in lower/mid maps) DD is dealing almost 100% more base damage than fireball is. That damage scales up with AOE damage, and each time it's multiplied through curses, penetrate gem, % increased and CE the gap between the two gets wider and wider.

Searing is actually not a staff I would use for fireball. The only way fireball out-scales other fire spells is by dual wanding it, or having a serious GG wand with max spell, fire, and cast speed rolls. In every other case fireball is actually far worse at pack-clearing than even firestorm. Fireball is a great single target spell due to the ability to shotgun, but DD and fireball serve different purposes and trying to say fireball clears faster shows a level of clear ignorance. (that does not apply if you're using some setup involving void battery, but void battery makes basically any spell viable).

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Detonate Dead and Fireball have the exact same cast speed. DD requires a corpse and for the target(s) to be near the corpse. Fireball does not require any corpses and can be cast freely wherever the caster desires.

The advantages of DD is a massively overpowered blast that is based on a corpse. Link Concentrated Effect, Chance to Ignite, Increased Burning Damage, Increased Area of Effect, and Fire Penetration, and you can easily one-shot just about any mob, especially if you use a unique corpse. The disadvantage is that your damage can vary greatly based on the corpse, can be ZERO if you lack any corpses, and interferes with other builds. Devouring Totems will consume YOUR source of damage, along with the new summoner skills that bolster summons. If a summoner is running around with both Flesh and Bone Offering, then you are dealing much less damage, if any at all.

It also has shit for AOE, doesn't pierce, and has too low of a damage to make ignites clear rooms quickly if you use LMP to actually get the needed AOE on it.

I don't play DD as a primary skill, but if I did I'd have a quality, leveled, desecrate and it wouldn't be an issue because I would create my own corpses and could even create extra for them. I only need 1-2 DD to clear a room and that's not even built around the damn skill. Fireball takes a lot more casts (even factoring in the desecrate cast) to clear a room/map, and is equally useless at clearing a room/pack in a party. It does help a bit more on bosses though, I'll give you that.

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Now, Fireball can easily deal the same damage at all times without bothering any other builds unless they use EE, but that screws with any elemental build. Fireball can easily use Concentrated Effect, Chance to Ignite, Increased Burning Damage, Fire Penetration, Faster Casting, and either LMP or Chain to greatly increase their damage and melt a mob away with a few casts. Party members can freely use Devouring Totem and the Flesh and Bone Offering skills without interfering with your damage potential.

Fireball has a built in chance to ignite from quality, allowing you to get away with not using Chance to Ignite and using another gem to further increase its damage. Detonate Dead requires you to use Chance to Ignite in order to reliably ignite targets. Another reason why Fireball is much better.

Fireball deals consistent damage, but that damage is far and away too low to actually matter. Fire trap, fire storm, DD, and flameblast can all clear rooms and maps faster than fireball. Fireball's one claim to fame is the best single-target DPS fire skill (which is actually debatable against firestorm).

Also, who actually uses devouring in normal play? It's way too low for legit sustain. I can see it as a utility on no-regen maps, but that's about it. Please, please link fireball to chain and tell me how that goes for you. You have clearly not actually played a fire-based caster in end-game, or you've only played a fireball caster and not seen how grossly underwhelming fireball actually is.

If you build around ignite for fireball then you're doing it wrong. Ignite is a passive bonus and shouldn't be a focal point of an end-game fireball build, or you would be much better served running fire trap, DD, or flameblast.

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Natharias wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

^^
totem dmg penalty applies to DD. probably you see crits

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Natharias wrote:

I have no doubt that DD can do that. But what I do doubt and debate is that it is weaker...oh, I already posted why. Perhaps you should read it.

However, DD only uses the regular health of mobs, not the increased life from party increases, which makes DD less and less effective the more players you have.

all your explanation 'why it doesnt work and is weak' compared with someone doing 6man HP mobs SOLO simply show that youve missed some ways of making DD work better. have you seen that video? it was very fast run, fast as in: run, cast 1-2 times, run, next pack.. it wouldnt be any faster when playing normal piety with lvl80 char..

DD is very good, with all these drawbacks youve mentioned etc it still can roflstomp maps as fast as with any other OP build. sadly nerf to desecrate reduces that 'first corpse' source and makes this build what it was pre-desecrate: nice powerful build, party.

LOL.

im amused by your replies and attitude

you just dont get it and wave that Fireball as a some kind of flag

lvl 78 map white mobs have 50000 HP, not 6000. your fireball spec will not 1KO them, ever. just like any spell youll tickle them one volley after another. this is why myself and Z3roSh0t chimed into this thread


DD scales with monsters. linearly. all your math etc is just a veil to cover the fact youve never played with DD in maps and simply cannot understand how it works and why. you come triumphant that it is not easy to get 100% monsters health dmg. yep true. you point out that it requires corpses. yep true. you point negative synergy with other builds. yep true (this one is almost valid!). and yet it works like clockwork for any pack. single target is another story but it is exactly the same with Lightning Arrow or any other OP AOE setup. you need single target. and this single target can be used to generate this first corpse - synergy!


simple truth: if DD does not one shot mobs, it can easily TWO shot them, with HUGE area (you spec for it). this is chain reaction carnage that no fireball build is capable of doing, EVER. you can take your beloved fireball spec to cruel catacombs and clear these to achieve a clearing speed that was possible with dd+desecrate and now is possible with dd+leveled desecrate. proliferated ignites are good but your fireball ignite dmg is low compared to stuff like ele wands hits, flameblast hits or discharge. also if you shotgun and hit with 3/5 ignite will work only for single highest hit, not total of them so the ignite is low.

and exactly what stops DD being speced for crit? it can crit too.. 5% and 6% means effectively 18% less crits. not a huge deal given DD raw dmg potential that cannot be matched by any flat-value spell

you can lol all you want but fireball dmg is flat, while monster health moves up with levels. dd moves up too and this makes all the difference when you leave lvl66 maps and move forward



have a look at this: crematorium double boss with DD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsoDSDYsSSM
he plays a bit funny (slow etc) because from what i see he is using Tabula Rasa.. but the dmg is clear