If a game is dominated by NON-OFFICIAL RMT, is it any less pay2win?
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nGio wrote:
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Dan_GGG wrote:
Firstly, please keep the thread civil, there's no need to antagonize other posters for contributing to it.
With that out of the way, colluding with RMT sites would ultimately be a very flawed and inefficient way to make the game pay to win, which is something we've never wanted to do anyway.
We would have to be comfortable sending our valued players through virus-ridden third party sites that we have no control or oversight over, nor any way to prevent them from stealing your personal information, in order to ultimately allow them to undermine the game for legitimate players. Aside from being probably 10 kinds of illegal across several countries, there really aren't any gameplay or financial reasons remotely good enough to make us consider doing it, even if any of us considered it ethically appropriate.
So rather than organizing an elaborate conspiracy we could just ban them whenever and wherever we can because not only is it less risky, but the game, and therefore everyone who contributed their time, effort and money to it (especially you guys) benefit from us doing so.
Or you could just be realistic. With this current system, it would take somewhere around 200 Exalted Orbs in currency to craft an item from scratch(I'm currently at 81 Exalted into my 2H in Nemesis, and it isn't even usable yet). I have 600 hours played on Nemesis and I have found 2 Exalted and 0 Eternal. So if 1 Exalted drops every 300 hours and I need 200 of them to craft 1 item......do you see the problem?
There are 3 types of people that play tradecraft games like PoE.
1. I don't RMT ever.
2. I RMT every game.
3. I don't RMT.....unless I am completely demoralized with bad drop rates and horrible RNG, and RMT becomes worth more than the time wasted farming/crafting.
Address the real problem, drop rates are absolute abysmal shit, and players aren't progressing late game without RMT. Trade chat is comprised of "6L my shit for 'x'" because crafting is a joke. Your top players(that haven't given up on the game yet) are using RMT because drop rates are a joke. You can hide from us the amount of users online at any given point, but anyone who is playing can see an empty friends list and a trade chat that is purely 2 guys spamming something back and fourth.
I could stay at my job and work 2 hours of overtime, which would give me enough money to RMT more than I would find in 500 hours of doing maps. Literally. That's why RMT users per legit players is so overwhelming in this game. I hate RMT, and I love what this game "could be" but you guys need to fix the problem.
This.
Please understand GGG, this isnt about general QQing or bashing your product. Its about the path in which this game is headed. If you dont work actively against RMT this beautiful and great game will turn into a RMT-dumpster. You cannot stop RMT but you can take actions making it less attractive or even pointless (adding a self found league option)
Sure, you can make it harder to do, but it cannot be prevented.
Heres why;
The RMT market is an alternate to the barter economy of PoE. It happens away from the main economy (but still affects it due to path-to-market S/D stuff). Its a black market. And we all know how ineffective crushing black markets is, they exist in every country despite the huge resources often thrown into eliminating them by authorities. [too many obvious cases to support this, cbf]
For as long as its possible to transfer items between accounts, in any manner, this market will continue to flourish.
That said, since RMT is against the rules of the PoE economy, GGG has painted itself into a corner and now must "do something" to enforce the rules in a meaningful manner, even though they know the process to be largely meaningless.
Although banning players who buy from RMT (and making some noise about it) is akin to jailing people for taking drugs this at least put a Risk/Reward equasion into play for the players.
Sellers, on the other hand, should face far more serious consequences including (if possible) legal action (if you dont 'own' an electronic item you cant sell it, just ask iTunes) or banning by mac address or somesuch method that identifies the computer the account is accessed from.
As for droprates, they are fine. I have yet to trade for an item before completing the game proper on merciless. In Dom I have traded for 3 items totalling 21c, and traded a couple of items to guildmates, 2 gems and a stack of regrets.
Increasing droprates only moves the player further up the power curve, and relatively the game gets easier. If GGG doesnt want the game to get easier than it is now increasing droprates will require the game to be rebalanced around the new player power level, which will lead the players to whine about needing better (and more) drops again.
B.
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Game was developed for trade/economy .... the drop tables are balanced for trade,RMT effects trade which the drop tables are balanced around ... everyone is effected whether you trade or not.
Chests/breakables get adjusted,mob drops get adjusted,vendors get adjusted and in even more extremes of pulling content from games.
If the game becomes too easy for players with great gear (from trading and RMT) and the game gets balanced because of this,it will effect your game even though you solo.
RMT brings botting,mass botting puts more strain on servers/maintenance and enforcement of botting rules,costing time and money,time and money that could go into development to make YOUR game more enjoyable.
Anyway whatever,I'm pretty much done with RMT subject and I'll let you all keep your head in the sand as it doesn't effect YOU !
The wording you use does leave the impression that you have a bias towards the importance of trading -> "Game was developed for trade/economy". That's not entirely true, only part of the game was developed for trade/economy.
I can understand having a complaint about RMT if a person enjoys the trading aspect, but when it comes to self found; do I think any one of my level 60+ characters would be any better or higher level? No.
Besides if a player is not in the top 100 ladder at most, what's going on is a lot of this:
I put the context you felt prudent to cut back into the above quote. =P
You also say this below
but when it comes to self found; do I think any one of my level 60+ characters would be any better or higher level? No.
A quick glance at post history I guess you really do think all of your level +60 /death league characters would be better or higher level.
Here a sample for you. (your words)
Spoiler
I'd like to see the game make it quicker to reach lvl 80 before the grindfest to lvl 99 starts. An adjustment to experience curve where the time needed to reach max level does NOT change but have the point where experience gains dramatically drop happen later.
I have 5 level 60+ characters and only now with my level 79 character; it feels largely completed. Imo level 80 (or a couple levels lower) is when a character is mostly finished with the skill tree and it's power or lack thereof will be realized
Easy to say, so easy it may be just fabricated.
How did you do it? Time involved? Like if you took 3 months before you died and was entering 76/77 maps. Then you could only say map drops were fine for you.
From my experience taking a whole month with zero lvl 70+ maps dropping, but getting close to half a stash full of lower maps, something is wrong and not "fine" as you put it.
I believe there is a need to create TWO noticeboards. One for playing and another for trading. Cause I doubt I'm the only one going a little bit crossed eyed at the selection, when it comes to PLAYING. Doubt traders are on the same level.
The drop rate is somewhat too low imo.
It's been my experience with 5 lvl 60+ characters (one is 79 iirc)that the game does shower you in loot up until Act 3 merciless. That's when I start to notice the gear check.
But all my stuff is self found or made other than an amulet that was given to me by my friend.
As far as chance, one lvl 60+ has around 175, but it's more or less unplayable because it feels like having to ZERG through content in merciless act 3. So I made the decision to mostly play my strongest character into maps. Where this "shower of loot" is hugely vending material. Upgrades are few and far between, you could define it as: very rare.
One of my characters is in the high 70's and doing maps somewhat frequently.
I haven't seen a single +70 map drop yet.
Maybe cause I'm a "casual"?
Honestly I'm thinking the number crunching guys that program this game don't play these skills at all and go OHH! this shouldn't be happening.
Now if the guys at GGG could track skills being used and say "hey these skills aren't being used, let's buff them!"
Well when I do catacombs, you're right, I REGRET needing to open that chest.
For a while there I would quit the game with the character I'm leveling and rejoin with another one that had over 100 magic find. Didn't change drops much at all other than an occasional rare. Such an experience makes me regret that chest is there evertime it explodes into usless stuff.
In one way it's worse than Diablo 3, where everyone agrees that only one in a million yellows seems like is any good.
Cause slap yourself in the face and say, "Hey! these yellows that drop in the PoE game... it's just like same droprate playing D3!"
NO, not the kind that show up on a G(O-o)gle searh. The kind in game you click on and expect a whole bunch of l(O-o)t to fill your screen.
From my experience this ladder season, when I first made my toons, these chests were awesome when I ran into one. It seemed to always drop at least a yellow but enough times it was multiples and an occasional unique (in early levels). But now in higher levels it's changed.
One of my toons is near 80 and because my gear isn't the greatest, I spent a LOT OF TIME doing Catacombs; just for leveling, just to see what drops, just for fun. That place has a chance at spawning a Large Chest... -> Chance = RNG and sometimes it was a lot but most of the time it didn't show up. And the drops weren't like early on.
From my experience, everytime that chest would spawn it was: in one word -> SUCKS!
Is there a reason for that? Like are there bots that run the place 20x over that it would take a legit player to run and therefore get the rng chance to find great gear? Is that why that large chest drops crap?
Other than the most dedicated players during ladder season, this is pretty much a pipe dream. Most everyone else like me enjoys a fresh start, see how well you do from one season to the next.
Why not throw everyone a curve ball so to speak. How could that be done?
Rather than make it a pure experience race, cap experience to level 91. If you want to make it to level 99, then each of the eight achievements also gives you a level.
I think it will add an uncontrolable dimension to being first to max lvl on the ladder.
First off serious players will have to manage getting all the uniques, that involves trading/being social, NOT just hours and hours of grinding. Then there's trying to find that last shrine, RNG maybe not shine upon that last level point. I imagine there are some other "luck" things and sure some top players would complain. But meh, you're either having fun along the way or you got an ego problem.
I wouldn't completely call it creating problems, instead it would create two big issues that could have a third and even bigger one.
1) Dividing the community. 2) SFL would lag behind in the levelling process in a ladder season because drops can't be distributed. 3) What will those two combined do to business?
Maybe someone should suggest that one day every month the rng chance gets "doubled" the chances at success.
Thing is some people who like to trade, won't like that
I don't expect to be a top 100 player anytime soon, but it would be nice if GGG would loosen up on the drops.
It's pretty obvious, mouse clicking skill being equal, this game is also slanted towards being a successful trader.
I would guess it's a hc thing mostly. I personally don't have the patience for that and after creating one gimped build; I've learned the art and gaming skill of ZERGING! Desync shouldn't be any problem on sc unless you've got a short fuse
I would at least double the chances of large chests to spawn.
First time ever I've gone to the Notice Board and every single one had to do with the economy. WTB WTT and doing ____ for a chaos, stuff like that. EVERY LAST ONE!
I don't mind trading but I'd rather see something done about it. Just my 2 cents.
So many balance and design decisions effecting you in a tradecore game.
I'm keen to compare self found notes with you if you'd like,I'm fairly well versed in the subject and you may find my solo self found/gambled rules a lot more punishing than your own,seeing as your only *mostly self found* and playing /deaths leagues.
You see although I'm solo self found I understand that their is a broarder community out there with different needs,wants and requirements,I understand it's not all about me and try not to play in a bubble.
In finishing,your playing an always online game that was developed with trading at its core,not a singleplayer game with optional online features and as such all balance done for the economy will effect you in some way (good or bad).Saying otherwise is just denial or ignorance.
EDIT: My bad spelling and fat fingers
To cut to the chase, rather than put up a lot text in unique context. You're going to have show how much the RNG has changed (BiS item per BiS) within the game since it's release in order to prove:
"If the game becomes too easy for players with great gear (from trading and RMT) and the game gets balanced because of this,it will effect your game even though you solo." Your words
Otherwise it's imaginary theory crafting that would mislead players into believing fiction as truth.
Imo most of the perceived unfair advantage the RMT gives is because numerous players like to look at themselves and see something imaginary there too. Which really isn't important to the true value they have within the community. Unless you're in contention to be number one on the ladder, then it would be important. But NOT because you want to see how awesome you look compared to other players, but because players should NOT CHEAT.
What a purely antagonistic thread. By definition, pay-to-win is when the developers/publishers themselves offer in-game advantages/items/powers for real cash, thus the 'pay to win' is purely between the user and the service provider. Pay-to-win MUST be sanctioned and provided by the game makers themselves. If financial transactions for power are explicitly against the rules, then this denial of pay-to-win is even stronger.
Third party sites have nothing to do with pay to win by the standard definition, else any game that has trading online is 'pay to win' because SOMEONE will find an *illegal* way to monetise it.
IF a game is dominated by non-official RMT, as you put it, then it's still not pay to win. It might be broken, and absolutely not worth playing, but it's not pay to win.
This is a dead horse. Please stop flogging it.
And the thread is now a million pages....
Dear public: The OP did not earn any of this activity. He said _NOTHING_
and how many replies are there?
I think threads like this help GGG mods to seperate the wheat from the chaff.
I'd like to thank the "contributors" for identifying that they are people
with nothing to contribute.
You are my fucking Hero. Holy shit. Finally someone who gets it and puts everything I want to say down in a way I seem unable to. Thank you.
100% agree wiht nGio, I have 2k maybe 3k hours played into the game and rng... why you hate me so! Barely anything to show for it. Yes I find the game fun, yes I love to play, but FML because rng makes it so I can't make awesome builds for lvl77/78 maps. And if you want to be in the top ladder with out RMT or illegal crossrealm trades? Forget about it.
