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tinko92 wrote:
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syrioforel wrote:
True, but very unlikely at that point!
Still, not impossible, so one cannot say it's about time investment, because it's not a certain thing you will 6L, even if you play for 2000 years.
9876th fusings gives you the same chance to 6L like a 1st one does.
It's not about time investment, it's about luck and only luck.
Sure, but we wouldn't even be discussing this if it were a 50-50 chance. No one flips a fair coin 100 times and gets all heads. Not really.
It comes down to something that's roughly a 1 in 1000 chance having a high variance compared to its expectation. Sure, it's still "luck"-based, but I'd probably call BS if someone claimed to have spent 20k fusings.
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tinko92 wrote:
Where I see it, the ones who would not use the "6L orb" would be the ones who 6S and try to at least 5L the item before the sale.
Which I personally do, because people aren't logical, for items without links I get max 10 chaos offers, and when I 5L it, suddenly 15 ex is a good price, because people cannot evaluate items without link, it's the principle of "Oh, not even 5L? Here's my offer of 8 chaos for it, because, you know, it's not even 5L...".
Some people need 5L for their build, so only search for 5Ls on xyz. I can understand it, though yeah it can be annoying as a seller to have to deal with it.
IGN: SplitEpimorphism
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Posted bysyrioforel#7028on Dec 23, 2013, 8:14:21 PM
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And if this was done the next step would be:
"Guarantee a super rare unique after playing xxx hours"
"guarantee a max roll after using x amount of crafting material"
"guarantee a map upgrade drop after x amount of maps"
Where would the line be?
Compromising the hunt for that super lucky moment is compromising the motivation behind playing a loot-grinder like PoE (arpg genre)
I strongly oppose the idea of this thread, if you have bad luck with your fusings, suck it up and try another day, if you have luck with it savour the moment.
A 6l is not needed to play and spec at all, its something to strife for that would be awesome to reach.
There even is a 6l alternative for everyone called Tabula rasa, with the (rightfully so) downside of loosing stats for using it.
So [x] vote NO from me, a very bad idea.
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Posted byAnelit#6043on Dec 23, 2013, 8:20:27 PM
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eebertay wrote:
most i ever linked was a 5
its just part of the game
the in game economy is probably the most ingenious id seen and it helps a lot with balancing
sure, the game has its issues...
but the crafting mechanic tying into the currency is insanely smart becuse it exploits a risk/reward scenario
you remove the risk, youre left with reward and then what?
Thank you for writing a non-inflammatory post. (No sarcasm intended).
Indeed, the game has depth because of a lot of risk/reward judgement calls that you have to make as a player. They add depth.
If I made a 6L-recipe, that consumes way more than I'd expect to spend rolling fusings into my item, it now gives me the option to decide how I want to link my item up. I can choose to spend a great deal more currency to cushion myself against the 20% chance of ending up broke with nothing to show for it.
Note that you can often already do this, by just buying 6L items outright. Some people hold lotteries.
If you put such a recipe in place, it would:
- Reduce unsightly lottery thread spam.
- Reduce the number of "I spent 20k fusings but no 6L" complaint threads. ("Just use the damn recipe." would end that thread right there.)
I don't particularly care about 6Ls for myself, but I'm seeing a lot of "I dumped XXXX fusings and no 6L. Fuck this game." exodus threads. That could be addressed by such a system.
There's also some drawbacks involved:
- It's a bit odd, logistically. Shoving around that many orbs doesn't really work.
- Looks like a gimmick, and acknowledges that the RNG-based linking system is flawed by providing an alternative.
- It may stagnate the economy somewhat by encouraging stockpiling of fusing orbs.
IGN: SplitEpimorphism
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Posted bysyrioforel#7028on Dec 23, 2013, 8:21:49 PM
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syrioforel wrote:
Sure, but we wouldn't even be discussing this if it were a 50-50 chance. No one flips a fair coin 100 times and gets all heads. Not really.
It comes down to something that's roughly a 1 in 1000 chance having a high variance compared to its expectation. Sure, it's still "luck"-based, but I'd probably call BS if someone claimed to have spent 20k fusings.
Why not? It's possible, just not probable.
But it's good enough to break the "time investment" theory.
Probably, I have no idea what kind of a will to fuse something you'd have to have after you spent 10k+ fusings and didn't get 6L.
Nevertheless, "6L orb" should not increase the amount of 6L items, it should decrease.
So, where is the problem? Since the problem about "anyone having a 6L by lvl 70" (which is a total bullshit, if not RMT) is dissolved.
That would actually be crafting.
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Posted bytinko92#6447on Dec 23, 2013, 8:22:00 PM
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Anelit wrote:
And if this was done the next step would be:
"Guarantee a super rare unique after playing xxx hours"
"guarantee a max roll after using x amount of crafting material"
"guarantee a map upgrade drop after x amount of maps"
Slippery slope arguments are generally considered fallacious.
IGN: SplitEpimorphism
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Posted bysyrioforel#7028on Dec 23, 2013, 8:24:00 PM
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Anelit wrote:
"guarantee a map upgrade drop after x amount of maps"
Where would the line be?
I've commented on the map shit system few posts earlier.
Based on that, that would actually be an upgrade.
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Posted bytinko92#6447on Dec 23, 2013, 8:24:03 PM
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tinko92 wrote:
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syrioforel wrote:
Sure, but we wouldn't even be discussing this if it were a 50-50 chance. No one flips a fair coin 100 times and gets all heads. Not really.
It comes down to something that's roughly a 1 in 1000 chance having a high variance compared to its expectation. Sure, it's still "luck"-based, but I'd probably call BS if someone claimed to have spent 20k fusings.
Why not? It's possible, just not probable.
Well, the odds are 2 in a billion. I would be surprised if that happened to anyone playing. On the other hand, the chances of it taking ~8k (around 1 in 3000) are high enough that this almost certainly affects a large fraction of players.
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But it's good enough to break the "time investment" theory.
Sure; especially if you consider than many players will have a success with their first fusing.
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So, where is the problem? Since the problem about "anyone having a 6L by lvl 70" (which is a total bullshit, if not RMT) is dissolved.
That would actually be crafting.
I outlined some issues in my previous post. The problems are certainly not "it would be too easy to get one," though.
IGN: SplitEpimorphism
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Posted bysyrioforel#7028on Dec 23, 2013, 8:28:25 PM
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eebertay wrote:
look, its pretty obvious RNG hasnt served you well, which is why you want this guarenteed 6L item, to satiate your QQing
bottom line is that the orbs (currency) behaves as a safeguard against inflation...if we start increasing the odds of end game items in favor of the player, it will throw things out of wack
i noticed a good amount of your characters are in sc leagues...so imagine the 6L's that will find their way into the standard markets (as if there arent many already)
it would ruin the fun in having an end-game to strive for...not sure how else to put it.
some people enjoy playing this game for hours on end and grinding for those insanely tough to get items.
so to my point earlier, if you really want a 6L item THAT badly...then theres one for the taking, the tabula rasa.
if youre trying to link some godly item you have, then tough shit...its not a privilege everyone gets
There are some misconceptions here again.
We're talking about increasing the odds of 6L when using the recipe (to 100%) at a cost which is equivalent to a net loss on average due to the recipe requiring a value of currency which is based around a markup of say 50-100% on the expected value of fusing required to 6L on average.
The idea here isn't to have 6L raining from the sky, but to have people actually work to complete their builds instead of rerolling or just dropping the game until a new league and fresh econ make the game more interesting again.
I would certainly imagine that you would see more 6L in leagues this way. No doubt about it. It wouldn't be because the recipe makes it easier though, it would be because the recipe makes it definite. It would make it so are less likely to abstain from going for a 6L altogether due to the knowledge that the system is potentially a complete and utter waste of time. It makes it worth it for more people to invest the time required if the end result is certain.
After discussing it a bit here on the forum and thinking about it, the 6L just seems like such an enigma in gaming. It adds significant power and is based around a random roll that can completely delight or screw over the common to more dedicated player. Naturally those that are spending the most time in game will get their 6Ls. The currency required isn't that significant.
The tough spot and the reason that his will always be an issue is that the distribution of players with regard to capacity of time available for playing PoE is such that many will fall on the curve where 6L attempt will result in complete currency RIP. All I need is GGG to say, "it will never happen" so I can forget about it. =D
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Posted byCataract#0343on Dec 23, 2013, 8:41:43 PM
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Would you support a mega kill orb that instant kills every opponent aswell?
░░░░░███████ ]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
▂▄▅█████████▅▄▃▂
Il███████████████████].
◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙◤..
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Posted bybersi23#1195on Dec 23, 2013, 8:44:36 PM
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Cataract wrote:
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eebertay wrote:
look, its pretty obvious RNG hasnt served you well, which is why you want this guarenteed 6L item, to satiate your QQing
bottom line is that the orbs (currency) behaves as a safeguard against inflation...if we start increasing the odds of end game items in favor of the player, it will throw things out of wack
i noticed a good amount of your characters are in sc leagues...so imagine the 6L's that will find their way into the standard markets (as if there arent many already)
it would ruin the fun in having an end-game to strive for...not sure how else to put it.
some people enjoy playing this game for hours on end and grinding for those insanely tough to get items.
so to my point earlier, if you really want a 6L item THAT badly...then theres one for the taking, the tabula rasa.
if youre trying to link some godly item you have, then tough shit...its not a privilege everyone gets
There are some misconceptions here again.
We're talking about increasing the odds of 6L when using the recipe (to 100%) at a cost which is equivalent to a net loss on average due to the recipe requiring a value of currency which is based around a markup of say 50-100% on the expected value of fusing required to 6L on average.
The idea here isn't to have 6L raining from the sky, but to have people actually work to complete their builds instead of rerolling or just dropping the game until a new league and fresh econ make the game more interesting again.
I would certainly imagine that you would see more 6L in leagues this way. No doubt about it. It wouldn't be because the recipe makes it easier though, it would be because the recipe makes it definite. It would make it so are less likely to abstain from going for a 6L altogether due to the knowledge that the system is potentially a complete and utter waste of time. It makes it worth it for more people to invest the time required if the end result is certain.
After discussing it a bit here on the forum and thinking about it, the 6L just seems like such an enigma in gaming. It adds significant power and is based around a random roll that can completely delight or screw over the common to more dedicated player. Naturally those that are spending the most time in game will get their 6Ls. The currency required isn't that significant.
The tough spot and the reason that his will always be an issue is that the distribution of players with regard to capacity of time available for playing PoE is such that many will fall on the curve where 6L attempt will result in complete currency RIP. All I need is GGG to say, "it will never happen" so I can forget about it. =D
Just to point out that this is the kind of post I refer to as being well-written:
Coincidentally, I agree with all of this.
IGN: SplitEpimorphism Last edited by syrioforel#7028 on Dec 23, 2013, 8:49:12 PM
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Posted bysyrioforel#7028on Dec 23, 2013, 8:48:57 PM
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