Game is too easy? Not complex enough.

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psythos wrote:

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EpsiIon wrote:

There are more then 3 skill lines for each class. It simply needs alot more thought to see and manipulate the tree into serving whatever build you want.

There are two start lines and two lines that deviate from the start lines in each class. The deviations equal wasting roughly 8 points on ten point atrribute multipliers. This means that deviating often means wasting.

For example:
A witch is forced to take high amounts of mana and has little options for accuracy unless she goes for daggers, claws or wands. You can't make a decent hammer witch that could top the templar simply because the amount of waste it would produce.

Your logic is flawed in this respect. Builds must incorporate certain things, yes, but none of the starting lines/nodes are utterly defining for the builds. Each class has a defense, which they ARE sorta-psuedo forced into those. But at the same time, they aren't THAT restricting.

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psythos wrote:

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Andreasen wrote:

Why is this thread 13 pages long?
Let's say that OP is not a troll, and actually think that all it takes is to hold down the mouse button. In that case he'll have no trouble rushing through the game and posting a screencap of himself beating the final boss while he's level 5. He can just put all his points into movement speed, and then rush past all the monsters to get to the final boss faster. ...or he can buy Counter-Strike.
This thread is 13 pages long. Why are you taking this seriously?

Why does anyone who disagrees with you or you don't agree with have to be a troll?

No, it's just you who I suspect. (Edit: I thought you were op in this post, BTW.)

I compare this to somebody complaining about how chess doesn't use terrain or require quick reflexes, asking why people call it hardcore, saying that it can't possibly be hardcore if it doesn't involve reflex skills. "Monopoly needs more The Sims, and Halo needs more Final Fantasy - how dare they call themselves good games? There's not a single Chocobo in Halo. WTF? Somebody told me that Halo was Final Fantasy XXVII, but there's not even a skill tree."

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Seems like this thread is just about kicking around ideas to make the game more complex and diverse.

So is the entire forum you're in.

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I don't see how asking for a more complex game means people want the game to be like counter strike.

No - that's the game you're asking for.

...but surely, if you have all these superior reflexes of yours, play Hardcore mode and see how far you get. If this is such an easy and simple game, then beating Hardcore should pose no problem to you.

my cats breath smells like cat food

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EpsiIon wrote:

There are more then 3 skill lines for each class. It simply needs alot more thought to see and manipulate the tree into serving whatever build you want.

That's exactly my impression. While there are two archetypes to start with for every class, one can easily branch off into multiple other sections, that offer distinctive twists.

However!

I don't see ggg stopping there with the skilldrassil, which would be a cruel let down; that's just not going to happen.

I've read most of this thread. Most of it are people arguing just for sake of arguing: arguing about what is hard and what is not just for sake of calling it this way; arguing about what is hardcore and what games are hardcore just for sake of definition; arguing about what is a good ARPG without saying what they actually like in POE and what would they want to see in POE.

First post and a few others raised an interesting point: POE allows for winning game with bashing single button, should it and why, how can we improve. Let's discuss it without calling others names and leaving the hardcore definition aside (there are enough threads to discuss this one). I will analyze some points with my opinion on it.

Firstly, let's look at what we have:

1. Remember the game is in beta! If you are on this forum discussing how to improve POE you should also read announcements from devs. Apparently monsters and bosses in act 3 are going to be more interesting with nice activated abilities. This rules out some of arguments in this thread.

2. I think it's cool if game allows for winning with holding mouse button. There are possibilities to create characters that use multiple skills in multiple patters and are not less effective than ones holding button for their freezing pulse or ground slam. Some people like to theorycraft and play with numbers to later have their character mow through enemies with ease. As long as you can have fun, let them too. If you like micro-control aspect of the game more it's just your preference and some can like theorycrafting only.

3. There are a challenges for those who want game harder. This includes turbo leagues and race leagues. In 3 hour races every click can matter.

What can we want more:

1. Some people want more micro-control skill - reaction on monster attacks, countering enemy moves. I have mixed feelings about it. I like competition in games like SC, LoL and DoTA or BLC. I can see how some people prefer to have more of it in POE. I would definitely like if game surprised me more, if disconnects was not my only threat in HC league but which I could survive with my skills. However, I don't want avoiding attacks like in Crash Bandicoot. I hated avoiding arcane beams in D3 because it meant running in circles. It was dumb, didn't feel like fighting at all, was not hard but annoying.

2. More interesting traps and monsters AI definitely. There were some interesting ideas in this thread. Spiders coming down on strands from trees or from ceiling could work. We have some spiders coming from walls which is cool, and overusing spiders everywhere would be not ideal, but since we have spiders in forests anyway they could sometimes trap you instead of walking from afar, maybe even catching you in web for a sec before they come. This would prevent players from always being safe in back as summoner or always blasting enemies with ice spear before they get close.

3. More unique areas. Walking through open forest #14 is not that exciting even if leaves are different color this time and unique bandit spawned with slow aura. We could have special places/events, maybe some that don't spawn every time. They were used in D3 and had potential to be cool, except they were to easy, too rushed, had no reward and were not even fun to beat (killing a monster with purple name instead of yellow, especially he dies in 1 shot, and hearing pathetic story that you preferred not to, to believe game's devs are actually not retarded, was not fun). Those events should be scary, challenging. They can be a clear warning that something will be hard but is optional. Quests now are very simple progression, it is assumed you should finish every quest and do them, more or less, in order. Hunting for white beast can be something with potential. Right now it is "Ok, let's do another quest, oh, here is the bear, OK I killed it". Instead it can be a real boss fight with option to flee. Advanced players could use it as benchmark to check if their new build is viable. New players would often die but be able to leave it and progress anyway. It can even include collapsing the cave as option for finishing fight - not something most people expect and want in such game, but since it's a side quest, why not.

4. More diverse challenges - 3 hour races are cool but not everyone has to like starting a new character and running act 1 over and over. We could have some crazy chaos maps where monsters would be given random abilities. We could have burning dogs leap slam to you while skeleton archer summons shockwave totems between attacks. Or pirate mages summoning frost walls when you are far until their flicker comrades get close enough to fight. Pretty much everyone wants cool endgame challenges but we have to wait until devs finish core content.

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globbi wrote:

stuff

word.

I just have to chime in. I haven't played this game yet, waiting on the download still, but I've always played ARPG's and I have extensive experience with the greatest ARPG's of all time -- Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 (including expansions) and Diablo 1 and 2 (including expansions). I played all of those games to the point of out right absurdity so I can certainly offer a valuable opinion on what I personally expect from ARPG's, from the perspective of someone who avidly played games from this genre during the golden age of pc gaming.

BG offered an amazing experience despite being (pretty close to) the polar opposite of Diablo. BG focused on role playing and immersion, and it did an AMAZING job at that. The story, the dialogue, the characters, and the journey you undertook made the series something we will likely never see again. The character development and the relationships you generated were truly entertaining and made you want to replay the game numerous times with different characters and parties.

The itemization was great in the sense that it scaled rather perfectly, but it was designed specifically for a single player environment -- meaning the online play was more of an after thought and the real beauty of the game wasn't competitive online play, but a truly one of a kind single player experience.

Were the battle entertaining? Yes. Were they challenging? Yes -- more so than most ARPG's because you had to micro manage your entire party to maximum efficiency during the particularly difficult battles. These battles were also made into truly epic encounters because of the build up from the story line. Your decisions leading up to these battles also determined how they played out.

All in all, the BG series was great because of role playing, story, immersion, character development, relationship development, and challenging encounters. This is one way to make a truly amazing ARPG.

Now we get to the Diablo franchise, (not including D3, that abomination doesn't deserve the "Diablo" title) which was one of the greatest games of all time for very different reasons.

Basically, you take a super dark and gritty world (complete with satanic and demonic symbology), ultra competitive environment, amazing cinematics (rather than a focus on the in-game story), simple and repetitive yet addictive game play, truly innovative and polished online multiplayer, and picture perfect itemization.

Simply put, the Diablo franchise was solely driven by competitive online play, including PvP. It's funny because even the players that didn't spend hours in duel games were spending those same hours farming items and being just as competitive as the pvp'ers. If you weren't competing for kills you were competing for items, the entire online experience revolved around easy game play, repetition, and fierce competition.

Both games had fully customizable stats and skills/spells. These were imperative to your character's performance in the game and neither of them allowed you to respec (sorry kids, have to think a little bit before hitting "+1").

FUnny how much lengthier my post on BG was, but that's because Diablo was a truly simple game. Even funnier is the fact that I play BG 2 for probably 2-3 years, but I played Diablo 2 for somewhere around 8. That type of addictive competitive play is the most addictive type of game I've ever had the pleasure of experiencing and no game I've ever played recreated that experience.

Did Diablo have challenging encounters as far as actual skill goes? No, they were all gear checks (but the better players always won PvP unless it was class vs class). Did Diablo have an immersive story? Nope, not even close. Competition and addiction -- that's all the Diablo franchise ever had going for it and it was enough for D2 to sell more than any RPG ever made up until that point, which is funny because it was a PC game and it still out sold every other RPG title ever made. Ya know what came in second place? It's expansion, LOD. That's why D3 sold 6 million copies despite being a pile of steaming shit.

Funny how times change, now everyone games and those numbers were blown away years ago, but you can bet your ass that if someone but that type of passion and creative ability into a modern ARPG it would break records once again. Obviously that's what GGG is trying to accomplish with POE -- maybe not breaking any records, but putting passion and creativity into gaming once again. God knows the genre has been basically void of these two elements since Bioware and Blizzard sold out. It's not just ARPG's that are affected either, the COD franchise has been steadily producing games that get progressively worse with every new release.

All in all, there are multiple ways to make an amazing ARPG. Not everyone is going to be happy with the "Diablo-esque" approach of simplicity and competition, but it's one of the best ways to make an ARPG and it's been proven over the course of years. Maybe this game doesn't have enough of a skill requirement as you'd like and that's ok. But for those of us who loved Diablo, hopefully this game will fill a void that has been around since Diablo 2.

EDIT: Also, this game is FAR more complex than 90% of the trash being produced today. Most developers are trying to make games that will appeal to huge audiences by making them so incredibly easy that a 5 year old child can play it easily. Look at Diablo 3 and you will see an over simplified game tailored specifically to children.

You want a game where you need quick reflexes, think hard, use strategy and terrain?
Play starcraft, get to masters 1v1. (Doubt you could ever do it - Seem to boast alot, doubt you'd make it past silver.) Once you do that get yourself a Korean key and realize how much of a scrub you are.

You want a game where you have to plan, work out synergies, be innovative and then get to test it all out after you melt it in a pot? Play an ARPG. These games are great for planning, and feel awesome when you create something yourself that works and makes the game feel broken.

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GueulEclator wrote:

I wonder if we will ever get any feedback from the devs about it. When it's about to boast about how deep, complex and difficult to handle their skill system is, they are all noisy. But when it comes to talk about actual strategy, combat difficulty, gaming skills or whatever makes the game challenging, they are all silent.
Funny how they litteraly avoid the entire issue of lack of challenge (who end up maing the game bland and repetitive)

Maybe because strategy, difficulty, and skill are not important factors to this game or this type of game?

Some may disagree with me partially or completely on that but that is certainly how I feel. Difficulty can help with longevity of hardcore long term players but its definitely not a core factor to the intended fun of the game. Strategy is somewhat there but again not a main feature. What skill were you expecting in an ARPG? The majority of your power is in your gear and the rest is the time you spend making your build using your passive points and choosing your skills so where does skill come in to play?