Leveling skill gems is boring.

"

Rahabs wrote:

I've been playing a bit of TL2 lately, and the skill lvling feature of TL2 is really nice. To be fair though, each class only has 9 skills i think, so as chris pointed out, that'd be a real pain to do in POE.

That being said, I would love to see POE adopt the suggestions others have made in this thread, such as giving us three different directions to take a skill when it lvls. Even if the choices on all skills are the same (e.g. more dmg, less mana, or lower stat requirements)this would give us so many more build combos. Or, let us choose an "upgrade" every 5 lvls like TL2 does. Granted that would take a lot longer to implement than stat adjustments I'm sure. Maybe this is also something that only "skill" gems aka not supports should have, but I'd be willing to delay open beta for something that adds this much more complexity to an already great game.

i'm really trying not to spam this forum with my ideas but this interests me ALOT so i apologize if i post to much.

yeah i know it would be hard to implement but i think it would add a great deal of content to this already fantastic game.

The problem i see with having "all skill choices the same" is that some of the skills would get left out of this bonus and it would limit the amount of customization. (for example auras, totem, special skills (like RF) would miss out on some of these benefits. that's why i said 3 choices for each (every 5 or so levels) and they DON'T have to be unique for each.

Example:

freezing pulse
1 increased damage
2 increased crit chance
3 increased freeze duration

ice spear
1 increased damage
2 increased crit multiplier
3 increased projectile speed

this will allow customization and would build on the existing mod system.

auras can just get something simple like this (which still builds on the old system):
1 increased area (in addition to normal)
2 5% increased effect, 20-40 (for flat) or 2.5% (for percentage) additional mana requirement
3: 5% reduced mana reserve

The issue of support gem availability seems key to this argument. We're only offered a select few and not that often. Thus my level 19 witch's fireball might deal extra fire damage or have 3 projectiles, while yours gets increased critical chance or added cold damage. There is a measure of luck involved here too, due to drops.

So is the call for more predictable upgrades? Hm. That seems to go against the grain of PoE's loot-is-everything standard.

On the art/visual front, I figured we'd be offered some likely alternatives on the microtransaction store. For example, if I support my fireball with added ice damage, I'd like a palette change or even alternate animation for 'fireball' that matches it.

Of course, it can be argued that such a change should be standard, but it is purely aesthetic.

I think the reason Chris cites the support gems as the 'response' to growing/evolving skills is because that is exactly what is happening. With support gems, we can take a fireball gem and:

a) give it multiple projectiles (a common 'advanced' version of fireball; see Sacred 2, for example)
b) augment it with another elemental damage type (not so common)
c) increase its blast radius (again, Sacred 2 did this)
d) tighten the radius so it deals more damage
e) increase its chance to ignite the enemy
f) Make it cast faster, cost less mana, move faster...

These could easily be represented by a tree, but the level of freedom is much higher in PoE. I really appreciate that. The downside of this is you need to generate your own 'excitement' when building these skills. I played enough Torchlight 2 (and Sacred 2) to realise that the progression of skills there is really no different, it's just emphasised and clarified.

Do people really want that here? I hate the thought of my fireball automatically gaining support-gem style effects at a certain level when I might not want those effects on my build.

And I sincerely do believe that if the animation/visual representation of a skill changed depending on what support gem were used that we might not even see this argument. Of course, then we'd have the issue of priority: which support gem alters the animation? If you have a six-slot item (yay!) with, say, Fireball+Faster Projectiles+Elemental Proliferation+Increased Area of Effect+Greater Multiple Projectiles+Added Lightning Damage, which of those five affects the animation?

Lastly, I think there should be complete conversion support gems, to justify alternate palettes and animations. A fireball that has been completely converted to, say, lightning could, in any other game, be a separate skill called 'Ball Lightning'. Spark completely converted to fire might be 'Jumping Embers' or somesuch.

This is the two-edged sword of the support gem system. On one hand, you have a GREAT deal of customisation and flexibility for every skill. On the other hand, though, you have to use your imagination in doing so, rather than being handed a whole new skill.

If GGG were to remove all the support gems and created skills based on all the possible combinations, we'd have over a thousand skills, I'd say. That's not happening.

Or, if you went the Torchlight 2 method and assigned, say, three supports to every skill (and made them somewhat unique), you could have the following progression:

Spark

Upgrade 1: Penetrating bolts (spark+piercing)
Upgrade 2: Dancing storm (spark+piercing+LMP)
Upgrade 3: Spreading tempest (spark+piercing+LMP+Elemental proliferation)

Double Strike

Upgrade 1: Precise Strikes (Double Strike+Increased Critical Strikes)
Upgrade 2: Vampiric Blades (Double Strike+Increased Critical Strikes+Life gain on hit)
Upgrade 3: Flurry (Double Strike+increased critical strikes+Life gain on hit+Faster attacks)


Terrible names, but you get my gist. Sacred 2 allowed for a little forking, which is surely possible here as well.

Compared to the support gem system, the above describes a linear progression, imbued with a little 'cool' in the form of individual names and maybe animations. If GGG could do that, and actually have the skill names change depending on the influence of support gems, I think that'd be very awesome. Not necessary, but awesome.

What matters right now is the functionality is there. Sure, you don't get told your fireball is now a multi-shot increased area of effect, increased critical chance, increased chance to ignite skill, or see that it's now actually called something really badass like 'Infernal conflagration'...but it essentially is that good, that badass.

Personally I find a strange humility in the support system, an antithetical lack of flashiness and superficial changes certain other ARPGs flaunt by modifying a skill in some small way and daring to claim it's a whole different skill.

I do agree that you guys are asking for a bit much. While the "leveling" of the gems gives a small benefit per level, the amount of variables to rebalance the skill gems is staggering. Instead of reworking the system, which would take 10 patches at this point, something could be integrated into the current system to make it more loot based than it currently is.

A suggestion that I had awhile ago went something like this:

Every dropped gems quality will be randomized based on a subset of already existing support gems. The quality will be only a percentage of what the gem could offer, but the support bonus will increase with quality.

Ex. Fireball

Possible subset of support modifiers:

Added Cold/Lightning Damage, Increased Area of Effect, Concentrated Effect, Faster Projectiles, Pierce.

When a Fireball skill gem drops, it will gain 1 of these supports randomly as a quality boost on top of current quality changes. Based on the quality %, the skill gem will have a minor boost to that type of support, which would stack with the corresponding support gems.

Pros:
Gives skill gems very high randomization.

Cons:
Huge amounts of balance.

If the quality boost is small, I don't see it really having a very significant impact on the way the skill functions. The main stream skills such as Ice Spear and Ground Slam will still dominate, but this could give some of the lesser skills a much needed benefit.

i don't have the time now to respond in detail to all of this but i can say that we are , or at least i am, NOT asking for the gems to get these benefits every level, just every 5 or so to allow for further customization and rewards besides pure damage. i am NOT advocating for the removal of the support gem system at ALL! if these benefits only affect skill gems that is fantastic. if they want to go the extra mile and have them affect supports too, kudos to them!

Repeats.

this idea would indeed need major balance issuing. even more than what i opted for. if i found say ground slam with concentrated effect bonus mod and i decided to put this on my 6 linked Marohi Erqi how unbalanced do you think it would be for me to be trolling around with an 8 link?... i could probably one shot Vaal Overlord with that.... so although interesting and possibly fun, it would create more problems than it solves.

also if you were to have supports do this i could have a potential 13 link. need i say more?

(charan: I'll try to respond to that tomorrow, done for tonight. glhf all)

"

Charan wrote:

So is the call for more predictable upgrades?

Increased predictability is a side effect of this suggestion, not the intention, I think.
Rather, the idea I think is to increase the amount of choice associated with leveling gems beyond "do I level it, or not?"

The assumption with this is that support gems would still be around, though their benefits would unfortunately be (somewhat) diluted by this extra layer of customization through leveling.

Personally, I find the appeal of the idea to be more (if not entirely) the extra anticipation you'd get from having skill trees for your gems in addition to your character - although, on reflection, that'd probably also cause a bit of strain on the learning curve.

So, what I envision it'd look like:

Spark
Increased Lightning Damage node(s):
+X-Y base lightning damage, +Z Intelligence requirement, +N mana cost (read: current damage progression)
Extra Projectile node(s):
+1 Projectile node, -X% damage effectiveness, +Y Intelligence/Dexterity requirement, +N mana cost
Increased Duration node(s):
+0.X second base duration, +Y Intelligence/Strength requirement, +N mana cost

Here, we have Spark potentially gaining the effects of the Increased Duration or Multiple Projectiles supports, but always at a price in mana and attribute requirements. (Incidentally, I suspect those particular supports aren't used very often for Spark in its current form)

Added Cold Damage
Increased Chill Duration node(s):
+X% increased chill duration for supported skills, increased Dexterity/Intelligence requirement
Increased Cold Damage node(s):
+X-Y cold damage for supported skills, increased Dexterity requirement
Decreased Mana Cost Multiplier node(s):
-X% mana cost multiplier (i.e.: goes down from 140% to, say, 135% - there shouldn't be many of these), increased Dexterity/Strength requirement


Double Strike
Increased Physical Damage node(s): normal progression
Flurry ("notable"): significantly increased physical damage, reduced accuracy, increased Dexterity/Strength requirement
Increased Elemental Damage node(s): increased elemental damage, mana cost, and Dexterity/Intelligence requirement

The hard part would be the immense amount of balancing so that people don't just always level up the gems the same way or go the same path for every level. E.g. Damage... damage... damage... If they did then sure levelling Gems would be marginally more interesting but still a mindless and monotamous act and we'd be back at square one.

Edit: minor

"

Vipermagi wrote:

[
There are four classes. Each class has three trees. Each tree has seven skills (so that's a lot more than nine per class...). Each skill has three 'tier' bonuses (lv5, 10 and 15), so they come in four flavors. 4*7*3*4= 336 technically different skills. Additionally, each tree has 3 passives with no tier bonuses; 3*3*4= 36 passives.

However, these tier bonuses are set in stone, and half of them are simple and honestly boring stuff like +Range. That's the key difference between what TL2 does and what is suggested here. You don't get a choice in the tier bonus; they don't branch out.
Lightning Arrow actually already does the same; it gains one additional target every... five levels I think?

Runic also doesn't really seem to care for balance that much, which helps a lot in designing skills. Great game though, regardless.

i really don't think in this case there is a such thing as "boring" gem leveling choices. You said increased range for example. Would you want to have increased range as a possibility on your spell totem? On your ice spear? I’m sure some totem witches that would love to have this as an option.

Also don't understand what you are getting at in your top part...

"

arual wrote:

The hard part would be the immense amount of balancing so that people don't just always level up the gems the same way or go the same path for every level. E.g. Damage... damage... damage... If they did then sure levelling Gems would be marginally more interesting but still a mindless and monotamous act and we'd be back at square one.

i don't think this is true. if they want to just go pure dps / increase damage, let them. so long as the benefits aren't insane (aka 100% increased damage) there shouldn't be a problem. It is their choice how they want to build it so why not? We can easily get someone who wants to make a crit build instead of a pure damage build.
Basically, what I’m trying to say is that they have to option to make it mindless if they want but it all depends on their build.

"

Skivverus wrote:

Increased predictability is a side effect of this suggestion, not the intention, I think.
Rather, the idea I think is to increase the amount of choice associated with leveling gems beyond "do I level it, or not?"

The assumption with this is that support gems would still be around, though their benefits would unfortunately be (somewhat) diluted by this extra layer of customization through leveling.

Personally, I find the appeal of the idea to be more (if not entirely) the extra anticipation you'd get from having skill trees for your gems in addition to your character - although, on reflection, that'd probably also cause a bit of strain on the learning curve.

So, what I envision it'd look like:

Spark
Increased Lightning Damage node(s):
+X-Y base lightning damage, +Z Intelligence requirement, +N mana cost (read: current damage progression)
Extra Projectile node(s):
+1 Projectile node, -X% damage effectiveness, +Y Intelligence/Dexterity requirement, +N mana cost
Increased Duration node(s):
+0.X second base duration, +Y Intelligence/Strength requirement, +N mana cost

Here, we have Spark potentially gaining the effects of the Increased Duration or Multiple Projectiles supports, but always at a price in mana and attribute requirements. (Incidentally, I suspect those particular supports aren't used very often for Spark in its current form)

Yes assuming the support gem system is still around it may lose some of it's importance but not enough to warrant a complete removal or write off of its power. The idea is to dive this potential to skill gems, not supports.
However, as i stated before, if GGG wants to do this there too I think that it will again amplify their value and potential.

Example (with the same benefits the skill already provides)

Greater multiple projectiles (choice repeats every 5 lvls)
1. +1 additional projectile, -10% damage
2. -1 projectile, +10% damage
3. 5% increased damage and crit chance

my point is the possibility is there to even do this to supports but it all depends on how unique, customizable, we want to make it.

"

Charan wrote:

So is the call for more predictable upgrades?

This does not make things predictable at all! I can't even fathom all the different builds this can spawn do how can this be predictable? The predictability comes from the build, not the skills. If you are doing a cookie cutter build then it may be but that's up to them, this just gives them options.

"

Vipermagi wrote:

"

Simony wrote:

i really don't think in this case there is a such thing as "boring" gem leveling choices. You said increased range for example. Would you want to have increased range as a possibility on your spell totem? On your ice spear? I’m sure some totem witches that would love to have this as an option.

It's a boring 'leveling choice' because it's not a choice. You either get it because you level the gem/skill (like you get +%damage, +targets etc. already), or you don't, because you do not level the gem/skill.

The tier-bonus system is ultimately the same system as we have now. Leveling a skill is (marginally) less boring in TL2 because levels get you bigger upgrades than they do in PoE. This works in TL2 because balance isn't an important concept there. Your Gun Bot can clear entire rooms without effort? Ok. That's nice. *shrug*

The bigger upgreades already essentially exist with Support gems. If you want your spell to shoot multiple projectiles, you don't need to reach a certain skill level; you add a support gem instead. If you want that additional range, you add the appropriate support gem.

tl;dr the TL2 system is, in my opinion, not the solution to boring skill leveling. It's not actually any different, after all.

firstly it is a choice because you choose what type of benefits you want to give the skill.you don't have to choose a certain one it's up to you and therefore making it a choice.

again I'm not saying we change the skills or even how they level. i am just proposing we give them some (3 or w/e) options every 4 or 5 levels to choose from to allow greater customization and thus a more rewarding experience. (i feel like I'm repeating myself here) The more choices they have the more unique the builds.

Also I'm not advocating to make it exactly like TL2 or w/e, I'm simple proposing an idea that, in my opinion, makes the game more interesting, rewarding, customizable, and complex.

and while yes some of the upgrades do exist already in the terms of supports not all of them do. (i haven't seen an increased range support gem have you?) so this is essentially another way to make your character, your build, unique and rewarding.

"

Vipermagi wrote:

"

Simony wrote:

Also don't understand what you are getting at in your top part...

Rahabs mentions TL2 and that each class has 9 skills. I broke down how many classes, skill trees and active skills there actually are in TL2 (21 per class, four classes, four tiers). Then, for completionism's sake, I listed the amount of passives. That's all there is to it. :)
It's kind of relevant because people mentioned coding effort, I guess?

ok thanks wasn't sure