Update 2: Grammar Error on Close Helmet vs. Close-Helmet (image and answer)

Explanation to someone in a recent PM on how long it takes to say 'Close Helmet' vs. 'Close-Helmet,' and why it matters.
XXX:

So the crux of your argument, then, is that using a Hyphen conveys the meaning more clearly. Am I understanding you right? I guess that is a valid point...

HeavyMetalGear:

Correct. You understand me right.

However, as an English major, trying to get people to understand why including the Hyphen to words or names like 'Close-Helmet' is extraordinarily difficult. It is these morsels of wisdom and knowledge in language that has been lost among the people.

XXX:

but I still think "close helmet" is better, due to the more common usage and concerns of matching context.

HeavyMetalGear:

If I understand you right, the reasoning behind your personal preference is because of the fact it's widely used and because of popular context. Correct?

Did you ever know or consider why (when counting to 2 on your fingers) that 'Close Helmet' is said/spoken a half-second slower than 'Close-Helmet,' and that 'Close-Helmet' is said/spoken a half-second faster than 'Close Helmet'?

Time it takes to say Close-Helmet: 1 & 1/2 seconds.
Time it takes to say Close Helmet: 2 seconds.

Both are correct yet mean different things. 'Close-Helmet' describes a helmet that can close (or open.) 'Close Helmet' tells you it's close (to what?) or infers the command to close the helmet.

Note: The amount of time it takes to properly say hyphenated compound words may vary, as in: a never-to-be-forgotten experience.

The reason: hyphenated compound words are said a little faster than non-hyphenated compound words because hyphenated compound words do convey the meaning of two or more words more clearly than non-hyphenated words can convey the meaning of two or more words.

Phew!

XXX:

You said that hyphenated compound words convey the meaning of two words more clearly than non-hyphenated words can. That makes sense for "Close-Helmet", but I'm not sure if this is true in general.

HeavyMetalGear:

It is the case in general, but it depends on what you hyphenate. Words that cannot convey a deeper message when hyphenated, more than not, should not be hyphenated in the first place. This is exception to the rule of rare case scenarios as in: a never-to-be-forgotten experience.

XXX:

Is "ice-cream" any more meaningful than "ice cream"? When reading those two aloud, I may well say one faster than the other, but this is only to differentiate the two spellings; it doesn't change the meaning of the words.

HeavyMetalGear:

That depends on how you're using the words ice and cream, hyphenated or not.

For example:

She has an ice-cream face vs. She has an ice cream face.

The first sentence tells you she has a face full of ice cream.

The second sentence tells you her face is made of ice cream, looks like ice cream, or has ice cream for a face.

To further drive my point through, let's turn the above sentences into insults. You will find one is less insulting than the other:

Ice-cream face! (said faster)

Ice cream face! (said slower)

The first wannabe insult still says the subject's face is full of ice cream.

The second real insult is saying the subject's face is ice cream or looks like ice cream.

Compound words are hard to explain. They almost work like the ellipsis does (...) in that the reader has to fill in the blank(s). The message is not necessarily told to you, but if you give it some thought you will see the message more clearly.

As said before, words that cannot convey a deeper message when hyphenated, more than not, should not be hyphenated in the first place.

XXX:

I don't think that the speed at which hyphenated words are pronounced is related to the meaning of the words; it only signifies the spelling as intended by the speaker. This may affect the meaning, but it doesn't always.

HeavyMetalGear:

I can understand how your viewpoint formed and why it formed the way it did, in a literal sense, but as a creative writer for eighteen years now, if compound words are used correctly, the speed at which hyphenated words are said in sentences has a significant effect on the meaning of the words.

Your thoughts?

XXX:

Pending response...

Reader's Note: Not just any two or more words can have hyphenation and make sense. However, for those that can or should have hyphenation, when you slow your speech on two or more words connected with a Hyphen or more than one Hyphen, the message changes and becomes somewhat different.


Note: This thread's topic line includes, but is no longer limited to, hyphenated compound words and names like 'Close-Helmet.'

======================================

Answer to why Close-Helmet is more correct than Close Helmet:

TLDR: Close in 'Close Helmet' is not a proper modifier to be included as a name. It means nearness or commands something rather than describes the helmet. Close-Helmet is the exact opposite of that just said. The hyphenation changes everything.

Elaboration: 'Close-Helmet' with the hyphenation is more correct than 'Close Helmet' because it describes the mechanics of what the helm does or what it is. Hyphenated compound words with one Hyphen, and hyphenated run-on compound words with more than one Hyphen do not sound like they are telling you what to do by giving a command.

Let's take the hyphenated compound word run-on. If I take the Hyphen away, watch what happens: Run on OR Run on! See? It sounds like I am telling someone to move on rather than describing someone's words as being a run-on. Run-on (when you read it) does not give the impression of telling someone what to do.

The above is a great example of how adding or subtracting a Hyphen from a compound word changes everything.

'Close Helmet' sounds like a short command for, "Close your helmet." Or, if someone with broken English (no offense) were to say it, "Go close helmet!"

'Close Helmet' also sounds like it's describing the helmet as being near something or someone as in, "The helmet on the table is close to me." Or, "This helmet I wear is something I hold close. My now-dead grandfather once wore it."

Meanwhile, 'Close-Helmet' does not sound like a command or describes nearness when a Hyphen is used because the word close is being used as a modifier to describe the word helmet. This then tells what type of helmet it is.

What is a modifier?

A modifier is a word or phrase that affects the meaning of another word, usually describing it or restricting its meaning.

Not all words that are used as modifiers need a Hyphen. However, modifiers that do need a Hyphen are hyphenated compound modifiers like said 'Close-Helmet.' 'Close Helmet' is not.

=======================================
=======================================


EDIT: I am quite sure this is not the only item (or word) with this error, even if it is minor.

'Close Helmet' should be 'Closed Helmet' (with a d added,) only if 'Close Helmet' is to stay as the name of this helm.

Otherwise, a Hyphen (-) between 'close' and 'helmet' needs to be added since Close-Helmet is a hyphenated compound modifier.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/close-helmet?s=t has it right, but doesn't follow through with using the hyphenation in the definition itself, which is odd.

'Close-Helmet' is interesting because somewhere along the lines how it's supposed to be written got lost when you browse it on the web via Wiki and Google Search.

Hyphenated compound words are said faster than words that are not joined with a Hyphen.

You be the judge:

'Close _ Helmet' (with a slight pause, indicated by the Under-Dash)

or,

'Close-Helmet' (without a pause, indicated by the Hyphen making the connection)





Thank You for looking into this.
HeavyMetalGear
When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails.
Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism
does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect.
(me)
Last edited by Bex_GGG#0000 on Sep 8, 2013, 3:16:52 PM
Code warrior
Zing ;)
My spurut is spunt
"
Rhys wrote:


I have to disagree in how the word close is used on this helm.

'Close Helmet' makes no sense. However, if the hyphenation is not going to be used, a closed helmet does make more sense.

If 'Close Helmet' is to remain as the name of this helm, the Hyphen (-) should be added so it makes more sense since Close-Helmet is a hyphenated compound.

The helmet clearly has a visor which comes down, that when closed no longer shows the face. Therefore, you wouldn't describe the helmet as being close; you would describe it as being closed.

The way the word close is used in the helmet's name would otherwise be used in the sentence, "Don't come too close!" You wouldn't say, "Don't come too closed!" Furthermore, you wouldn't say, "My helmet / visor is close." You would say, "My helmet / visor is closed."

Again (whether you believe it or not,) without the Hyphen in between close and helmet it does change the meaning of 'Close-Helmet' entirely.
When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails.
Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism
does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect.
(me)
Last edited by HeavyMetalGear#2712 on Sep 4, 2013, 10:32:14 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_helmet

It's literally just called a "close helmet". That's the correct spelling and usage.
Code warrior
"
Rhys wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_helmet

It's literally just called a "close helmet". That's the correct spelling and usage.


Without the Hyphen it makes no sense. 'Close-Helmet' is a compound via mixing two words together. 'Close Helmet' is not a compound and is therefore incorrectly named.
When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails.
Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism
does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect.
(me)
Last edited by HeavyMetalGear#2712 on Sep 4, 2013, 10:42:25 PM
"Close" isn't a descriptor, it's part of a name.
Computer specifications:
Windows 10 Pro x64 | AMD Ryzen 5800X3D | ASUS Crosshair VIII Hero (WiFi) Motherboard | 32GB 3600MHz RAM | MSI Geforce 1070Ti Gamer | Corsair AX 760watt PSU | Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD & Crucial MX 500 4TB SSD's
There is no exact terminology for this type of helmet.
Shakespeare called it "close helmet" and "casquetel". To be correct as you said, OP, it should be "enclosed helmet", but that's another type of helm

Not a big deal anyway, and not a grammar mistake
i like this game. i mean have you seen how powerful is the barbarian
"
Qarak wrote:
There is no exact terminology for this type of helmet.
Shakespeare called it "close helmet" and "casquetel". To be correct as you said, OP, it should be "enclosed helmet", but that's another type of helm

Not a big deal anyway, and not a grammar mistake


Two words joined together needing a Hyphen is in some way, shape or form a rule in grammar. 'Close Helmet' not having a Hyphen is a grammar error.

Also, just because Shakespeare worded it 'Close Helmet' too, doesn't make it correct. In fact, a lot of literary critics looking over old works have found a lot of error in the written material from these authors, including but not limited to, Shakespeare.

P.S. Yes, it could be Enclosed Helmet too. I'm not disagreeing with that. However, I offered up a correction that doesn't change the helmet's name as much possible by suggesting 'Closed Helmet' instead since it appears closed, and for the fact 'Enclosed Helmet' is the name of another helmet, by the way, does not need a Hyphen.
When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails.
Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism
does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect.
(me)
Last edited by HeavyMetalGear#2712 on Aug 30, 2013, 4:58:37 AM
"
Nicholas_Steel wrote:
"Close" isn't a descriptor, it's part of a name.


Right. The only way Close can be part of the helm's name is if it's joined with the word Helmet by a Hyphen as it should be so it makes sense. That's part of it being part of the name. Close is only part of the name now in that it's two words thrown together, improperly put together.

Correct. Close, technically, is not a descriptor. However, since it's not hyphenated with another word and is by itself, that is what makes it seem or read like a descriptor. It doesn't read like its intended said name. It looks like it does, but that's often what you get for looking when a great many people think only with their eyes.

It is not uncommon to be fooled by such things.
When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails.
Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism
does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect.
(me)
Last edited by HeavyMetalGear#2712 on Sep 4, 2013, 10:41:38 PM

Report Forum Post

Report Account:

Report Type

Additional Info