Uniques need to focus on Late/Endgame

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iamstryker wrote:

For some reason I thought you were going to disagree with me Scrotie...

No, I am agreeing with both of the apparently contradictory opinions; my point is that they're not actually contradictory. Like Goldilocks walking into the cottage, saying one pooridge is too cold and the other's too hot, and there's very little "just right" pooridge to be had.

On that note, we seriously need to fix the RF problem. If RF couldn't leveage ES regen vs life-based burning, Shav's would actually be a model unique; not too much ES, great PA enabler, fun with Blood Magic and auras. I think it's very unfortunate that it's become associated so tightly with RF that it's one of the first images that comes to mind when people think "OP."

There are many uniques that are timeless due to their unique effects even if they're weak right now. I actually find Zahndetheus' Cossack to be in this category. Nothing else does what it does and while it may be weak now, there is no guarantee that it won't be exploitable in the future with new content (skills/passives/etc).

For a few examples of something that would rocket Cossack into endgame viability: a skill whose damage only scales with light radius, or a skill that cared about the number of persistent effects in an area (current options: poison cloud, ice patch, burning patch, Consecrated Ground, Desecrated Ground).

More of those (and less Limbsplits and Stormclouds) would be nice, but there are a ton of uniques to be filled and I don't exactly see the harm in a level 20 twink 2h axe. It probably takes GGG no more than an hour to greenlight a twink unique, and might give an artist a place to just vent some pent up creativity.

If anything, this comment:

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Budget_player_cadet wrote:

The fact is that quite often, you just end up breezing through the first few acts, and a lot of builds don't really come into their own until the middle of cruel.

...implies that you do not accept that many people do not breeze through the first few acts/difficulties. I also find it hard to believe, but they do exist and I won't go out of my way to say they should stop receiving uniques.

The same is true with "PvP uniques". I don't care for PvP, but I won't be upset that a PvP unique is added.

Hell, we even have e-peen uniques like these: Look, it's working already. :)

i think there should be room for low level, mid level and high level uniques.
the quantity of each should be properly balanced.

creating a unique that is BiS should be avoided at all cost. the game becomes boring when most players wear varations of the same uniques.

one of the things i like in this game is that there is a lot of uniques with truly unique attributes, that require creating new mechanics for a given attribute to work.

i also think that creating a new balanced high level unique with new mechanics is a very difficult task that requires multidimensional look at the current system and interaction of existing skills and items. such items cannot be introduced into the game without prior anticipation of how it will affect current metagame.

taking the above into account a high level unique with one or more very powerful properties should rather have a balancing downside/(s) that will stop it from being a BiS item for majority. as said before this should rather be a build-enabler or build-enhancer than a no brainer must-have item.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Apparently it's never occurred to you that a 7L Discharge could be amazingly powerful, especially considering that it's a build often hampered by its ability to deal too much damage (and kill itself on Reflect). Perhaps Cold to Fire (to allow Frenzy charge usage) + Chance to Ignite + Increased Burning Damage + Life Leech + Elemental Proliferation, plus the built-in level 20 (!!!) Increased Area of Effect . I was actually pondering Pillar of the Caged God for a similar purpose, but Wideswing just seems easier than dedicating to 700+ Intelligence.

Not saying it would be good; just saying some testing may be required.

I just don't see the point. Great, so they made an incredibly niche unique for a caster build. And they made it an axe. Lovely. In fact, literally every use I can think of for the unique is a spell build, because any build running that as an actual weapon will hit a brick wall about ten levels later when the damage becomes pathetic. I don't think most Dischargers would give up the benefits a decent wand+shield or staff offers them for the sake of one extra link. I mean, we don't see dischargers running around with Marohi Erqis, do we? If it was intended for that, they could have done a hell of a lot better. Hell, it could have been endgame either way, because if it was endgame, it'd be useful for Discharge, and still potentially a unique you could give a Sweep build, or something.

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LMHTB wrote:

I dont need a fucking game full of end game uniques. I want a game full of end game rares.

So forget about your childish imaginations for such a game. Besides that, low level uniques are very nice for leveling new characters and are a reward for playing this game longer. If you cannot accept that fact maybe you should stop playing this game because you dont understand.

My problem is not that twink uniques exist. They have their purpose, and there's no reason why there shouldn't be some. But the problem comes when you run into two things: redundancy (there's no reason why you would ever use Slitherpinch or Ondar's over Sadima's) and wasting unique effects on gear nobody will use for more than a few levels. Zandetheus's Cossack, for example. Boy, that sure would be neat - shame most builds don't spend a lot of time between level 38 and 50, and that the nature of bosses in this game basically means "gigantic gear check" every so and so often, and that the chest is simply unusable past a certain point. And of course, both are a colossal pain when uniques commonly drop in endgame.

And then there's Wideswing. Boy, a 7L item with IAoE at level 20 and significantly increased range. That would be sooo cool for Cleave or Sweep builds. Oh wait, they'll be able to use it for that for about 10 levels at low-level. Oh, and Shiversting is considerably better for the most part.

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pneuma wrote:

There are many uniques that are timeless due to their unique effects even if they're weak right now. I actually find Zahndetheus' Cossack to be in this category. Nothing else does what it does and while it may be weak now, there is no guarantee that it won't be exploitable in the future with new content (skills/passives/etc).

Let's make the obvious comparison: Voll's Protector. The Cossack has reasonably similar stats, in that they're both completely negligible in terms of actual defense. So clearly, what matters is primarily the unique attribute. So... What do they do? Well, Zahndetheus's gives you some minor life regen on block, which doesn't matter when most of the threat comes from almost instantaneous death in this game, and Voll's lets you nuke you the entire screen every three seconds or so with an attack with DPS in the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. And before the skill was buffed, it still wasn't used.

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For a few examples of something that would rocket Cossack into endgame viability: a skill whose damage only scales with light radius, or a skill that cared about the number of persistent effects in an area (current options: poison cloud, ice patch, burning patch, Consecrated Ground, Desecrated Ground).

And the only way that this could make that happen is if the skill had DPS and range that meant you would pretty much never have to worry about getting hit by all but a few rare attacks. But even then, it's not significantly more than you could get on an actually decent chest, and for "number of persistent effects" it'd probably be more viable to pick, well, almost anything else that doesn't cost you such a valuable gear slot.

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More of those (and less Limbsplits and Stormclouds) would be nice,

Honestly, ZC bugs me far more than Limbsplit. Limbsplit is just a crappy twink unique. But ZC? ZC has a potentially awesome, unique effect, that's now probably never going to see use on an item actually worth using.

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you do not accept that many people do not breeze through the first few acts/difficulties.

I certainly don't accept that anyone would spend more than a few hours per level before A3 Merciless unless their build was fucking terrible or they were completely new to the game. In the former case, a unique like ZC ain't gonna help, and in the latter, they probably don't have it. So yeah, I don't think this is a niche that exists in any notable number, and I don't think they should be catered to. Certainly not to the degree we've seen.

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The same is true with "PvP uniques". I don't care for PvP, but I won't be upset that a PvP unique is added.

Well no, but that's a clear, specific niche.

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Hell, we even have e-peen uniques like these:

Look, it's working already. :)

Again, clear, specific niche with a reason to exist. It's clearly not a fair comparison to mid-level trash uniques.

Haha, this thread reminds me when Crest of Perandus' block chance scaled with Quality. It was really good in endgame.

48% Block chance, only needed 27% in the tree to max it out.
I made an HP build for the 1 week turbo race with this shield and a ton of endurance charges and a long Immortal Call, constantly Crying and tanking the turbo enemies for my party (With Hilbert, AAF, some other people. At least two people died, one because he separated from the party. I told him that if he did that he was dead, and I was right. My tanking was actually very effective at keeping close party members alive. Another one was in a room full of enemies (he was CI) and got triple shock stacked and died because I wasn't in the room to help take the damage.). It was a pretty good race, I went from level 50 to 73 without killing a single enemy. If I had a 5L or 6L chest I could have set up dual totems as well (since i didn't use a weapon for damage. I could have gotten a spell damage wand or something, maybe just tried to shock stack or share power charges + endurance charges with my conduit. Conduit also helped quite a bit for my party since i was running with two Kaom's Sign and +2 charges. 35% Resists and physical damage reudction for whole party, and immunity for me with Immortal Call.)

Or maybe I could have set up the dual totems with Summon Skeletons, Minion Life, Added Fire Damage, Spell Totem, Fire Penetration, Minion Damage + Minion Instability. Then in a wand with +2 to minion gems Summon Spectre, Minion Life, Raise Zombie.

very well written thread ,and ifeel that is a real adult discussion here mostly. Nice to see.
I personally completly agree with thread maker.

Why not just add some usefull(more stats) to mostly completly usefull items. So they maybe get some late game possibilits. Not making them op or best in slot.
I thin kit just looks strange when like the mentioned minsorrow gloves have a intersting conversion but none wil use them later. maybe add 60 life and 5 ats? or smthing else wouldnt make item op at all but maybe it wouldnt vendor immediatly. Some lvling uniqes are cool but i dont consider it good design if i use an item for 24 minutes between lvl 17 and 25.

It just seems very odd that so many uniqes have some sever drawbacks (no life / no defense/ not much dps) when there are lioneyes and shavronnes. again not saying make alll uniques that op but give them some use over instant vendor.

I read that d3 makes low lvl uniqes scale with ilvl or whowevr its called there i forgot.

That said i read that d3 takes a lot of poes ideas . i really hope poe solves some techniccal isues so i can still keep playing poe when d3 expansion arrives. Sidenode game that somewhat removes the complete randomness of crafting will earn my love forever . I really hope its poe .

Yeah, the lack of life on already mediocre uniques is always disappointing. Crest of Perandus without life, I guess I would've replaced it long ago, but as it is it still travels around Wraeclast with me at level 75.
The no-life-drawback is pulled far too often in my oppinion, see e.g. Devoto's Devotion from the 0.11.4 uniques. Little resists and no life on the gear slot that can have the 2nd highest roll for it, that is a downer. :(

I don't think the lack of life problem is the fault of the uniques though. Life is messed up in this game. In order to have even an adequate amount of life for the end game you have to stack high life on EVERY piece of gear. I think theres a problem with that.

No life on a unique pretty much means u need ci (shavronnes ll) or koams . They are absolutely unusable for every other setup which is sad.