Exactly why Facebreaker needs tweaking - An analysis.

Okay, basically, from what I've seen from threads around here, there is a big misunderstanding about why Facebreakers are so strong right now and how exactly the damage is calculated.
I am going to start off by saying that yes I do believe Facebreakers are OP at the moment compared to how they were pre-patch. That is all. Facebreaker received the biggest increase to total DPS from a single change, which barely affected other physical weapon builds. Therefore it must be tweaked if melee has any hope of being retuned to be comparable with ranged builds.

Prior to Patch 0.11.1 added physical damage modifiers from gear were not being scaled by increased physical damage modifiers granted by passives or strength. So in physical damage calculations, only pure weapon physical damage was multiplied by the increased physical damage amount. Meanwhile Facebreaker had the backbone to its damage already, the 800-1000% more modifier on it that directly scales with the added physical damage modifier from gear.

Firstly, in my calculations, I will assume several numbers that will carry on throughout for easy comparisons. These will be 60-105 total added physical damage, 400 strength (corresponding to 80% increased physical damage), 37% increased physical damage from passives, and 1000% more unarmed physical damage. Fist damage will be treated as 0 for calculation purposes.

So prepatch, the physical damage formula for Facebreaker would look something like this:

[(0)*(1.0 + 0.8 + 0.37) + (60 + 105)/2]*(1 + 10) = 907.5

[(Fist Damage)*(1.0 + 0.8 Increased Melee Physical Damage + 0.37 Increased Physical Melee Damage) + (average Added Physical Damage from gear)] * (1 + More Unarmed Physical Damage).

However, patch 0.11.1 would change the formula to include added physical damage modifiers to be able to scale with increased physical damage modifiers.



So the new post-0.11.1 formula would look like this:

[(0 + 60 + 105)/2] * (1.0 + 0.8 + 0.37) * (1 + 10) = 1969.272

[('average' Fist Damage + average Added Physical Damage from gear)] * (1.0 + 0.8 Increased Melee Physical Damage + 0.37 Increased Physical Melee Damage) * (1 + More Unarmed Physical Damage).

So, as you can see, this is exactly how Facebreaker damage basically doubled due to the changes in Patch 0.11.1. This is extremely troubling. Facebreaker I would not consider overpowered compared to other broken things in this game, such as RF and Shavronne's, or Discharge, but, the fact that it doubled overnight from what it was pre-patch to post-patch is what makes it 'overpowered'. And by 'overpowered' I mean in need of tweaking.

Many responses to this would be "But Acrosis, do you want GGG to nerf one of the only 'viable' (and I say viable very loosely) melee builds. Why would you do such a thing?". The thing is, you shouldn't be arguing that Facebreakers shouldn't be nerfed. You should be arguing about why Melee needs to be improved and retuned in a positive manner. Facebreaker should not be the standout of melee builds next to Crit Dagger and Soul Taker. Melee builds need to be retuned to be on-par with Facebreaker.

And at this very moment in time, it means a nerf/tweak to Facebreaker to bring it back down to the level of other physical weapon melee builds. Only after this can we expect to see some melee overhauls for the better. Because realistically, melee damage needs to be retuned and upped to at least where Facebreaker is now. But if such changes occur, surely Facebreaker will be magnified even further due to the large more multiplier it gives to added physical damage. Will only then be Facebreakers be deemed overpowered or in need of changes? Hopefully not.

tl;dr: We must nerf/tweak Facebreakers now so melee can be improved as a whole in future.

Edit: Fixed up a slight calculation error.

The cost of building a facebreaker is pretty cheap, but many builds can do the same amount of DPS until you have endgame gear with an Abyssus and 6 link. In which case you can have 50k+ DPS which is pretty hard to beat.

Also, I didn't look too closely at your calculations (I just woke up a while ago so I haven't the brain for lots of math yet) but strength/inc phys did apply to your fist's physical (which is 2-4 or something) before the patch. Either way, my Cyclone gained 1.5x more DPS and my Frenzybreaker is 2x higher than it would be pre-patch.

What I think should happen is the damage multiplier should be nerfed, but to counteract this, increase the physical damage rolls you can get on rings. Right now, rings only roll up to Annealed. I would like to see the 3 top tiers of physical roll on rings, and it will also make Facebreaker a little harder to get the best gear. Especially because the highest physical roll is at 78 I believe.

Perhaps I should bring up the mechanics of armour mitigation - that's another reason facebreaker is extremely powerful... it may not do 18 attacks per second, but physical based builds - 28k DPS tooltip at 8 attacks per second is higher than 28k DPS tooltip at 16 attacks per second simply because the damage mitigation will lower that 28k DPS at 16 attacks per second more.

"

Acrosis wrote:

Okay, basically, from what I've seen from threads around here, there is a big misunderstanding about why Facebreakers are so strong right now and how exactly the damage is calculated.
I am going to start off by saying that yes I do believe Facebreakers are OP at the moment compared to how they were pre-patch. That is all. Facebreaker received the biggest increase to total DPS from a single change, which barely affected other physical weapon builds. Therefore it must be tweaked if melee has any hope of being retuned to be comparable with ranged builds.

Prior to Patch 0.11.1 added physical damage modifiers from gear were not being scaled by increased physical damage modifiers granted by passives or strength. So in physical damage calculations, only pure weapon physical damage was multiplied by the increased physical damage amount. Meanwhile Facebreaker had the backbone to its damage already, the 800-1000% more modifier on it that directly scales with the added physical damage modifier from gear.

Firstly, in my calculations, I will assume several numbers that will carry on throughout for easy comparisons. These will be 60-105 total added physical damage, 400 strength (corresponding to 80% increased physical damage), 37% increased physical damage from passives, and 1000% more unarmed physical damage. Fist damage will be treated as 0 for calculation purposes.

So prepatch, the physical damage formula for Facebreaker would look something like this:

[(0)*(1.0 + 0.8 + 0.37) + (60 + 105)/2]*(10) = 825

[(Fist Damage)*(1.0 + 0.8 Increased Melee Physical Damage + 0.37 Increased Physical Melee Damage) + (average Added Physical Damage from gear)] * (More Unarmed Physical Damage).

However, patch 0.11.1 would change the formula to include added physical damage modifiers to be able to scale with increased physical damage modifiers.

Spoiler

"

Chris wrote:

Features:

• Physical damage on items is now scaled by physical damage bonuses (in a similar way to how elemental damage worked before).

So the new post-0.11.1 formula would look like this:

[(0 + 60 + 105)/2] * (1.0 + 0.8 + 0.37) * (10) = 1790.25

[('average' Fist Damage + average Added Physical Damage from gear)] * (1.0 + 0.8 Increased Melee Physical Damage + 0.37 Increased Physical Melee Damage) * (More Unarmed Physical Damage).

So, as you can see, this is exactly how Facebreaker damage basically doubled due to the changes in Patch 0.11.1. This is extremely troubling. Facebreaker I would not consider overpowered compared to other broken things in this game, such as RF and Shavronne's, or Discharge, but, the fact that it doubled overnight from what it was pre-patch to post-patch is what makes it 'overpowered'. And by 'overpowered' I mean in need of tweaking.

Many responses to this would be "But Acrosis, do you want GGG to nerf one of the only 'viable' (and I say viable very loosely) melee builds. Why would you do such a thing?". The thing is, you shouldn't be arguing that Facebreakers shouldn't be nerfed. You should be arguing about why Melee needs to be improved and retuned in a positive manner. Facebreaker should not be the standout of melee builds next to Crit Dagger and Soul Taker. Melee builds need to be retuned to be on-par with Facebreaker.

And at this very moment in time, it means a nerf/tweak to Facebreaker to bring it back down to the level of other physical weapon melee builds. Only after this can we expect to see some melee overhauls for the better. Because realistically, melee damage needs to be retuned and upped to at least where Facebreaker is now. But if such changes occur, surely Facebreaker will be magnified even further due to the large more multiplier it gives to added physical damage. Will only then be Facebreakers be deemed overpowered or in need of changes? Hopefully not.

tl;dr: We must nerf/tweak Facebreakers now so melee can be improved as a whole in future.

Thks for your justice crusade to nerf facebreaker build! Your dedication to make a viable melee build not viable anymore is touching.

The fact that you create a thread saying a melee build is too OP knowing other build can have 3 time more dps and survivability is quite funny.

Since when does other +75 melee build are not on pare with facebreaker?

you made a whole paragraphe complaining how facebreaker is op but lack of showing how other melee are underpowered.

Prove me that none other melee at level 75+ can have the same dps than facebreaker and then i ll believe you, but what i seen so far, any good melee build can do the same dps than facebreaker.

I believe you just can t create a viable melee build and rage on facebreaker just because of that.

It is true that at lower gearing levels Facebreaker could be matched pretty easily. I am strict about comparing a skill only with other setups with the same skill (It would be strange to compare Cyclone to Cleave etc.). Texazon, who has far more experience than me regarding two handed Cyclone and Facebreaker Cyclone, could match the DPS he had with both setups (Marohi + Kaom vs. Facebreaker + Shield). Now remember this is pre-0.11.1, so nowadays, his Facebreaker setup would blow Marohi out of the water. Nowadays, the only comparable dps I've seen is Soul Taker, and that is because they get to use Elemental Damage supports and have an extra support gem slot.

My calculations are restrictive in that they only show basically how weapon damage is calculated and how increased melee damage is factored into it. Since that was the only thing that changed in the formula with 0.11.1, it served to illustrate my point. Obviously if you add more factors like Added Elemental Damage, Area Damage, Attack Speed etc., the overall DPS improvement pre and post patch wouldn't be as drastic as illustrated, so between 1.5 to 2 times improvement.

As to how Facebreaker should be nerfed, the 800-1000% should be changed to a more respectable 400-500% (which makes it easier to obtain a 'good' Facebreaker modifier roll). This serves to allow melee to be retuned effectively in relation to formulas without making Facebreaker an outlier in terms of damage.

Also, if I recall correctly, enemy armour is capped at 930(?) so the attack speed comment is a moot point (or so some people tell me).

@Lolozori, If you're going to say 'Lol, I can do 60k Cleave and 100k Double Strike Splash, so 20k Cyclone sucks', you are comparing very different things. For example Cyclone, the only DPS alternative that can reach the same levels as Facebreaker would require a Soul Taker, and that is only because they get access to elemental damage and an extra support gem slot.

nowdays erqi builds would just take those nice +20% Mace nods (that are also followed with attack speeds nods bonus) and get same damages than facebreakers.

Again you are making assomption without proving what your saying is true.

I have a facebreaker level 86 build, Using facebreaker+infernal blow setup i raise to 40k without melee splash (25k with melee spash)

When i unequipe my gloves, put erqi instead and some defensive gloves, my DPS stay teh same (i loose about 2k that i could earn if i had create a pure weapon build) even more interesting, using facebreaker i can t take those nice +20% damages nods from mace... So with them i would even have more dps!

Now if i still had my erqi i would post printscreen to prove it, but i sold it.

If you want a nerf for the only viable melee build on a budget you definitely got your priorities wrong.

'ZOMGF FCACEBREIKUR DEIAL DOMMAGES'
Meanwhile you have a plethora of casterbuilds/totembuilds which puts Facebreakers to shame.

Melee have been kicked in the teeth pretty much every single patch lately, let's not keep that up, shall we.

I do not believe that for a second.

A Mace node is roughly 40-50% increased melee physical damage and some attack speed whacked on.

Marohi as a base gives about 400 physical dps.

Facebreaker: [(0 + 60 + 105)/2] * (1.0 + 0.8 + 0.37) * (10) = 1790.25
But this doesn't take into account the default 1.2 attacks a second.
1790.25 * 1.2 = 2148.3

Now let's say we get another 100% increased physical damage with maces.

Marohi: (400+ 80) * (1.0 + 0.8 + 0.37 + 1) = 1521.6

You would need heavy investment in the passive tree to match the dps of Facebreaker, which is exactly it is so powerful: the ability to have minimal point investment in dps nodes, while having killer dps and the ability to use a shield.

The only reason Marohi would be able to catch up is either with significant passive investment or using elemental damage, which is an entirely different matter.

"

Kriole wrote:

If you want a nerf for the only viable melee build on a budget you definitely got your priorities wrong.

'ZOMGF FCACEBREIKUR DEIAL DOMMAGES'
Meanwhile you have a plethora of casterbuilds/totembuilds which puts Facebreakers to shame.

Melee have been kicked in the teeth pretty much every single patch lately, let's not keep that up, shall we.

You have completely missed the point of this thread.

"

Acrosis wrote:

You have completely missed the point of this thread.

Nope, but it seems you have no idea what melee characters need to be on par with ranged ones.

Melee needs more survivability options, something in the line of Sorceress' Baneblade from Median, not more offensive tweaks. Any melee build that does 10-25k dps will do just fine in maps. Any more than that and it's just going to be a liability.

Facebreaker became somewhat useful after this patch but suggesting that it somehow compares to any of the other builds is borderline retarded. Most of the itemslots are occupied by gimmicky uniques to augment the insane scaling from flat physical damage, which in turn give you little to no survivability (Abyssus even makes it so that you have to heavily invest into armor to counter the huge downside it has). As a result you're gonna fall behind in resistances and life; you can only do so much with passive points (good luck overcapping without insane gear.)

GGG has already stated multiple times that builds should be overpowered in a fun way. Facebreaker's are exactly that. The damage is good but to compensate the aoe is pretty bad and reflect is a constant issue. And then on the other hand you have burning damage builds which can oneshot map bosses and have absolutely no worries when it comes to reflect. But you're right. Facebreaker is clearly an issue.

And please stop it with the math. No one cares about numbers when you have Firetrappers and EA characters reaching up to a million theoretical dps.

"

Acrosis wrote:

I do not believe that for a second.

A Mace node is roughly 40-50% increased melee physical damage and some attack speed whacked on.

Marohi as a base gives about 400 physical dps.

Facebreaker: [(0 + 60 + 105)/2] * (1.0 + 0.8 + 0.37) * (10) = 1790.25
But this doesn't take into account the default 1.2 attacks a second.
1790.25 * 1.2 = 2148.3

Marohi: (400+ 80) * (1.0 + 0.8 + 0.37 + 1) = 1521.6

You would need heavy investment in the passive tree to match the dps of Facebreaker, which is exactly it is so powerful: the ability to have minimal point investment in dps nodes, while having killer dps and the ability to use a shield.

The only reason Marohi would be able to catch up is either with significant passive investment or using elemental damage, which is an entirely different matter.

@Kriole
You have completely missed the point of this thread.

Take a 6l, put inside : infernal blow 20/20%,attack speed 20/20%,melee physical damage 20/20,melee spash 20/20,multistrike20/20,added fire damage 20/20

Use abyssus +9-15 rings and 10-21 necklace +meginord+facebreaker 999%

Now in this configuration, facebreaker build can only take melee physical damage nodes.with my build (marauder) take the 3 melee damade nods from marauder start 10%10%15%

Take the melee damages nods from duelist 15%12%8% and take the 6%6%6%15% from the middle area.

In this configuration i get around 25-24k dps

Now take away facebreaker,

put other glove, add 6l erqi,At this point my Erqi damages are about 20k ( so i lost 5k-7k) . Now i allready tryed to respect my facebreaker and put my
strengh pointsin the macesnods that have: Smashing blow:18% damages with mace+6% attack speed+12% physical +12%physical+8%physical+6%physical+6%physical+2%attack speed.

Reapeat that with all the mace nods you can take instead of the strengh/dex u needed for facebeaker.

Result: U get the +melee damages nods + the mace melee damages nods= Yourdps stay same/even can raise.

In conclusion, Facebreaker did not make my melee build viable, It s the skill tree path i chose that make it viable.

I did this because i was afraid GGG hating on facebreaker would make it shit again and wanted to see if my dedicaced facebreaker build could do same dps with a weapon.

This make me wonder if the developers are listening and implementing the advices of diamond supporters. Acrosis on facebreaker is what wrong with the game. These type of advices is what killing PoE.