Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.
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TremorAcePV wrote:
Spoiler
Time-out. You ask for arguements against your position, but in reading the last 5-10 pages I haven't seen you make an arguement for it. If it's further back, feel free to copy/paste it as a quote. You would know how far back to look, that's why I ask you to do it.
I disagree. It should not be allowed because it devalues the choice of FFA for the people who enjoy that loot system. I'm one of those people. I am the evidence of that claim. That makes it a fact.
Whether it's a fact that should be considered is up to you, since I only have evidence for myself. However, there are many other players who I know share my viewpoint. I can't really say "hey, be my witness." because this isn't a court room and we aren't lawyers. That'd just be silly.
Now, you might say "Well, why should they cater to you over the rest of the player base?" and the simple answer is thus: This game was made for us in mind.
If you dispute that fact, read up on where the game came from and who it was made for. This is why the developer's choices matter in this discussion. They show what I just stated is true.
The following facts are also true:
Originally, the game was pure FFA.
Now, it's FFA with a timer to make up for uncontrollable circumstance (such as distance and lag). That's true, and I've given explanations a many times to prove it.
This same loot system has been in effect for 2 years. That's a pretty long time for people to complain and nothing to be done.
Based on that, I think it is a very safe thing to say the devs want FFA. Badly enough to keep it for this long against negative feedback from part of the player base.
I guess, in a sense, saying "It should not be an option because it being an option detracts from my enjoyment of the game." is personal greed, to an extent. However, I don't personally believe that me desiring a game that was made for people like to me to stay that way is so much to ask.
I think (I think implies opinion, btw) it's actually more greedy for people who the game wasn't made for to come and ask it be changed so they can have fun in it too when that hurts the ones it was made for.
Then we are just deciding which greed to cater too. And in my personal opinion, ours is justified. It was made for us after all. Whereas, the ones trying to change it are unjustified beyond "It doesn't let them have fun like the rest of the players".
Examples of why I believe this to be true is the following:
There are an extremely limited number of hardcore ARPG's like PoE, if any at all.
There are an extremely large number of MMORPG's that have what you are asking be in PoE already implemented into them.
So basically, you are trying to turn what little we have into what you have an abundance of. Taking from the "have-nots" and giving more to the "haves". That's just backwards.
My above statements regarding how many ARPG's like PoE are out there is further shown when we consider why the developers made the game for themselves, originally, considering themselves hardcore gamers. I would wager the reason they did that rather than just play a game already made is because there were none for what they wanted. So they made PoE, and it grew into this.
Now, consider what happens if options are added:
You have more fun. The people the game was made for have less fun. (That's not right imo)
PoE has changed from being a hardcore ARPG with a few MMO elements to a "not-so" hardcore ARPG/MMO (Keep adding elements and it will eventually just be another MMO)
I understand that you don't understand how that could be, but it's true.
Regarding your understanding of players like me and how adding options would detract for our fun in the game, it's just like, somehow, NFL players play Football because they enjoy it. I'll never understand that. Ever.
This is not a weak analogy. It's the same thing with a different subject matter. You are in my position in this analogy and I in the NFL players position. I enjoy the game as is, so much so, that if I could have it as my job, I would. (Most hardcore players are like this)
So I don't expect you to understand why you having an option to play differently from me, but still be in the same game as me, is effecting me in how you play differently than I do.
All you must understand is that it does, not why it does, because you can't.
The argument for having a non-FFA loot option is that a clear majority of players would prefer an option and it has no affect on players who aren't trying to grab loot that is intended for other players. But you know that.
Most of your post is a rambling mess centered around the idea that you are a "hardcore gamer" and so what you want is what GGG intends in this project. Until you can support this perspective with statements from GGG, we are going to ignore all of that nonsense for the purposes of this response.
But this bit, . .
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TremorAcePV wrote:
So I don't expect you to understand why you having an option to play differently from me, but still be in the same game as me, is effecting me in how you play differently than I do.
All you must understand is that it does, not why it does, because you can't.
. . .this is ridiculous. You can explain it clearly and everyone knows it. . .the only problem is you have to lay bare the fact that how this affects you is that it deprives you of the chance to snatch loot that belongs to other players. (If the principle of ownership didn't apply, the timer system would not have been implemented.)
Having the option for non-FFA loot doesn't deprive "hardcore gamers" of anything. Until you can explain how it does, that is no argument.
Non-FFA loot should be an option.
Disagree? Explain why it should not be allowed.
(Pro-tip: if your explanation can be tracked back to personal greed, you will be eaten alive.)
If 'cutthroat' is the intent of the atmosphere in PoE, make it true cutthroat. IE, the ability to kill someone who picks up your item drop. Hell, kill him before he even gets near it. This lack of repercussion to taking someone's drop baffles me. What also strikes me as an oxymoron is the concept of 'partying' up to be able to do this. On top of that, there is an option to form private parties. How much gear jacking is going on there? I'd say it's a pretty lovey dovey share fest. Even this has it's flaws for tiptoeing around loot in case you piss someone off. Visible individual loot might not be the answer but it would be wayyy better option than how it is now in regards to teaming up with people.
That's the intent then? Make the game rewarding for cliques, and way more of a grind for someone soloing and or joining a public board from time to time?
-you need to pay attention to what drops while fighting
-you may need to run into danger to get your item
-even with friends, you still need to see what falls
This is not a reason; however, it turns your question into ‘There should be a switch to avoid a difficult part of the game’ Also, there already is an option – make friends and all agree to not compete. However, that can be very difficult to arrange too.
You state your opinion regarding FFA looting and difficulty, and then go on to treat this opinion as if it were a fact in the interest of trying to change my primary argument. This is a classic example of the Straw Man fallacy and thus your argument is invalid. (This also pulls the rug out from under the rest of your post, which is why it is omitted above.)
Non-FFA loot should be an option.
Disagree? Explain why it should not be allowed.
(Pro-tip: if your explanation can be tracked back to personal greed, you will be eaten alive.)
edit: clarification
So you think FFA loot in multiplayer games adds no extra difficulty when compared to single player. Fine. Even though, you need to divide your attention between fighting and looting and do many extra things that you otherwise would not need to do in a single player game. What a ridiculous blunder that I equate that with difficulty, maybe because it is more difficult?
You are literally and figuratively grasping at straws here.
I think what we really need here, is for these self-proclaimed Hardcore players, to define a few terms for us then. Oh and how about some questions while we're at it.
1. Define "Loot Tension". My current: The idea that you need PvP added into everything you can in order to get your adrenaline high off of either screwing over other players, or drinking in their tears. AKA you're a griefer or similar. I've got to assume you have another definition because otherwise what kind of a community are you looking for here?
2. Define "Hardcore". My current: Someone who invests probably inordinate amounts of time into something because they enjoy it greatly. Often goes along with a superiority complex that means they're better because they have more time to spend on it, and the knowledge gained through such play time. "All you must understand is that it does, not why it does, because you can't."
3. Why would adding more looting options ruin FFA? My current: Because then I can't troll people when they ask in the game name for me to be polite. Also because of reasons you'd never understand not being as Hardcore as I am. Also, then no one would play FFA.
IMO I see no reason the devs can't create the game they want to play. But, they should be clear about it, and the current loot system is not. What we have is an example of, saying one thing and doing another. I understand, and hope, it's supposed to be a bandage until server issues etc. are fixed. But the current system gives the wrong idea if they want it to end up as true FFA in my book.
All statements in this post are opinion. If I've offended you then tough, but stop hiding behind BS, and try to make yourself understood instead of speaking in circles. Honestly, that goes for both sides often enough in this thread, I just see it happening more from the Pro-FFA only side. (I'm human, I'm biased. So what? I'll at least admit it's probably coming from both I just don't see it offhand.)
Very good observations there, with a nice bit of humor without being too mean spirited.
I really think you hit the nail on the head with number 1.(and im not trying to offend you guys)
This whole thing has just baffled me why they are so against an OPTION for a system other than FFA, and that is it. They are afraid they wont have enough people to prey on.
Noone wants FFA to go away, continue playing your games as FFA, steal from your partners, cause the group to fail while you rush for that orb, revel in peoples complaints, whatever it is that makes you tick.
Again, as someone who just wants to play alone for the most part, im only really invested in this because im starting to feel forced to group.
What we are asking for is not a hardcore versus softcore discussion. The game by its nature is of the hardcore style of game, meaning its complex, deep, requires a lot of time, has a death penalty, zero hand holding, you can totally destroy your build, no full respecs, ect, ect, ect. The way loot is handed out doesn't even factor into it. I think the hardcore term gets misused on this subject. Its being used like it would be with hardcore PVP vs softcore PVP, except this isn't suppose to be PVP, its suppose to be coop. Which by its definition is not competitive.(yes i know the devs wanted to create a cutthroat feel, i read the original post, but devs make changes all the time, this is no different) The game is still hardcore, even if there is option to run groups with instances loot. It changes NOTHING for you, the person who wants to play FFA. Obviously there are enough of you to still play the game in your FFA groups. We will play in our instanced groups. Everyone is happy. This doesn't change the game into carebear land.
Lastly, the devs made this game to make money. Yes, they made a game that they themselves would want to play, but its not some special little club, that only people who enjoy stuffing puppies into drain pipes, and whipping themselves with a spiked whip are aloud to enjoy(thats a joke!). My money spends just as much as anyone's. Lets stop these grand romantic notions now.
Like others have said, Im not going anywhere, whether they change it or not, and I don't know why any of you would leave if they did make the change. It doesn't affect you. Noone is trying to steal your hardcore wetdream.
I swear, its like I can enjoy 99% of what is considered "hardcore" but by not enjoying dealing with caustic e-bullies in game, who have no sense of teamwork, and want to snag up every good item that drops, I must belong in the land of carebears and rainbows. I don't like screwing people over, its not in my nature. I also don't like getting screwed over. I would rather we finish the group, loot the stuff, and then share after the run. That is my perfect loot scenario. If its tied to each person, no one has to rush to get it, they can get it at their leisure. IF they don't want to share with the group fine. But i still will, and at least I was able to get my fair share.
"Hardcore" doesn't have to mean asshole
PS
all the other games out there that keep getting mentioned.....they suck. I dont like them anymore than you. This game is everything I have ever wanted out of an arpg, minus the extreme advantage of playing in a group and the loot system in the group. I wont quit even if nothing changed from this day forward. Games like this, monster hunter, white knight chronicles, diablo 2, torchlight 2, ect. The complex, deep, item hunters are what I live to play. You guys do not have a monopoly on them.
Last edited by jalford#3761 on Mar 1, 2013, 4:56:10 PM
I think that GGG should add in a monster that can randomly run onto your screen at any moment and one shot you no matter what gear or defenses that you have. The only way not to die is to manually dodge at the perfect moment.
I know that would be tedious and a boring way to add difficulty but as we all know anything that makes the game more difficult is better.
ownership is definitly intended because if it wasnt there would be no timer at all or a timer "FFA" which would make the item pop but nobody would be able to take them until X,XXsec later.
that way no ownership, just timelag for everyone to get close and/or out of desync,lagg,bad performance PC, etc
cheers
Edit : corrected you wouldnt became nobody would
Last edited by Traockl#7874 on Mar 1, 2013, 4:59:33 PM
I think what we really need here, is for these self-proclaimed Hardcore players, to define a few terms for us then. Oh and how about some questions while we're at it.
1. Define "Loot Tension". My current: The idea that you need PvP added into everything you can in order to get your adrenaline high off of either screwing over other players, or drinking in their tears. AKA you're a griefer or similar. I've got to assume you have another definition because otherwise what kind of a community are you looking for here?
2. Define "Hardcore". My current: Someone who invests probably inordinate amounts of time into something because they enjoy it greatly. Often goes along with a superiority complex that means they're better because they have more time to spend on it, and the knowledge gained through such play time. "All you must understand is that it does, not why it does, because you can't."
3. Why would adding more looting options ruin FFA? My current: Because then I can't troll people when they ask in the game name for me to be polite. Also because of reasons you'd never understand not being as Hardcore as I am. Also, then no one would play FFA.
IMO I see no reason the devs can't create the game they want to play. But, they should be clear about it, and the current loot system is not. What we have is an example of, saying one thing and doing another. I understand, and hope, it's supposed to be a bandage until server issues etc. are fixed. But the current system gives the wrong idea if they want it to end up as true FFA in my book.
All statements in this post are opinion. If I've offended you then tough, but stop hiding behind BS, and try to make yourself understood instead of speaking in circles. Honestly, that goes for both sides often enough in this thread, I just see it happening more from the Pro-FFA only side. (I'm human, I'm biased. So what? I'll at least admit it's probably coming from both I just don't see it offhand.)
Very good observations there, with a nice bit of humor without being too mean spirited.
I really think you hit the nail on the head with number 1.(and im not trying to offend you guys)
This whole thing has just baffled me why they are so against an OPTION for a system other than FFA, and that is it. They are afraid they wont have enough people to prey on.
Noone wants FFA to go away, continue playing your games as FFA, steal from your partners, cause the group to fail while you rush for that orb, revel in peoples complaints, whatever it is that makes you tick.
Again, as someone who just wants to play alone for the most part, im only really invested in this because im starting to feel forced to group.
What we are asking for is not a hardcore versus softcore discussion. The game by its nature is of the hardcore style of game, meaning its complex, deep, requires a lot of time, has a death penalty, zero hand holding, you can totally destroy your build, no full respecs, ect, ect, ect. The way loot is handed out doesn't even factor into it. I think the hardcore term gets misused on this subject. Its being used like it would be with hardcore PVP vs softcore PVP, except this isn't suppose to be PVP, its suppose to be coop. Which by its definition is not competitive.(yes i know the devs wanted to create a cutthroat feel, i read the original post, but devs make changes all the time, this is no different) The game is still hardcore, even if there is option to run groups with instances loot. It changes NOTHING for you, the person who wants to play FFA. Obviously there are enough of you to still play the game in your FFA groups. We will play in our instanced groups. Everyone is happy. This doesn't change the game into carebear land.
Lastly, the devs made this game to make money. Yes, they made a game that they themselves would want to play, but its not some special little club, that only people who enjoy stuffing puppies into drain pipes, and whipping themselves with a spiked whip are aloud to enjoy(thats a joke!). My money spends just as much as anyone's. Lets stop these grand romantic notions now.
Like others have said, Im not going anywhere, whether they change it or not, and I don't know why any of you would leave if they did make the change. It doesn't affect you. Noone is trying to steal your hardcore wetdream.
I swear, its like I can enjoy 99% of what is considered "hardcore" but by not enjoying dealing with caustic e-bullies in game, who have no sense of teamwork, and want to snag up every good item that drops, I must belong in the land of carebears and rainbows. I don't like screwing people over, its not in my nature. I also don't like getting screwed over. I would rather we finish the group, loot the stuff, and then share after the run. That is my perfect loot scenario. If its tied to each person, no one has to rush to get it, they can get it at their leisure. IF they don't want to share with the group fine. But i still will, and at least I was able to get my fair share.
ownership is definitly intended because if it wasnt there would be no timer at all or a timer "FFA" which would make the item pop but nobody would be able to take them until X,XXsec later.
that way no ownership, just timelag for everyone to get close and/or out of desync,lagg,bad performance PC, etc
cheers
arf sorry ... bad button used... sorry :s
Last edited by Traockl#7874 on Mar 1, 2013, 4:58:47 PM
So you think FFA loot in multiplayer games adds no extra difficulty when compared to single player. Fine. Even though, you need to divide your attention between fighting and looting and do many extra things that you otherwise would not need to do in a single player game. What a ridiculous blunder that I equate that with difficulty, maybe because it is more difficult?
No, there is no blunder here. You think that mode of play is more difficult. I do not. These are opinions; these are not facts. For the purposes of our discussion here, please try to keep the two separate in your head and in your discourse.
Also, the issue at hand is not if FFA gameplay is more difficult. The issue is that you were trying to alter the nature of my argument in the interest of making it easier to disprove. This is a logical fallacy and invalidates your argument. If you are unclear what this means, please re-read this abstract on the Straw Man fallacy.
Non-FFA loot should be an option.
Disagree? Explain why it should not be allowed or link me to an explanation of why it should not be allowed.
(Pro-tip: if your explanation can be tracked back to personal greed, you will be eaten alive.)
edit: amended my continuing point that non-FFA loot should be an option.
Last edited by Ladderjack#2496 on Mar 1, 2013, 5:06:23 PM
Having the option for non-FFA loot doesn't deprive "hardcore gamers" of anything. Until you can explain how it does, that is no argument.
Non-FFA loot should be an option.
Disagree? Explain why it should not be allowed.
(Pro-tip: if your explanation can be tracked back to personal greed, you will be eaten alive.)
At this moment in time we could possibly strap you down to a chair, pin your eyes lids open and have the devs themselves explain it 'very slowly' and you would still refuse the truth.
Thing is, with any loot options i will always take the path of least resistance. And so will everyone else really. This thread is all about that. Every single post about loot drops is basically a sad song about not getting the drop and wanting an easier way of gettin' it.
Don't ask me to prove this. You are not stupid.
You want options... Ok. But, now everyone will use the easiest option. Same thing happens in every game.
The real problem is people like you fail to see the whole picture.
There are a ton of others games like POE that cater to all your basic needs. GGG stated that they made a game they want to play. Its not hard to understand the concept.
But you want option... Strangely these 3 options are just not good enough for you.
1.) Get some friends/ form a team.
2.) Play Alone.
3.) Play a different game.
The loot options you want are simply are mash up of all those things you fail to choose to do.
You want POE to be a different game. You also want the benefits of being on a actual team with more than single player drops in public games.
But the thing is. GGG is supposedly working on some sort of loot change. What that change is and when it will happens. Who knows? Its the least important issue with the game at the moment and I doubt any change will happen anytime soon.
Last edited by Vooodu#7002 on Mar 1, 2013, 5:13:10 PM
