Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

Spoiler

Everyone knows this, or at least at this point should know this. The people that want an increase in timers for personal reasons (taking time to collect etc) are obviously in the wrong. The only reason I would increase it is due to how much more laggy the servers have become with OB. As a pseudo balance fix for loot until they fix the de-sync.

I agree with the last paragraph.

Yes, they should, but they don't. Thus the "ninja-ing" and "my loot being stolen" comments.

And it's really their fault. GGG implemented the system and directly explained what the timer was for, but few people read it and saw "My name is on that item. Therefore, it's mine."

I personally would've just had a timer with no name. Then people could camp as they do now, but no one would be complaining about the current system.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

"Named" loot, as you call it, isn't allocated to that player so he can have it. It's allocated to account for lag and distance so that all players can have an equal chance in a Free-For-All loot system. The timer fails at this, but not the point.

What everyone keeps suggesting (almost universally) would defeat the actual purpose of the timer. Increased times, instanced loot, invisible loot, etc as examples.

If you want to tell me I'm wrong, that's fine. I'll just copy/paste one of my responses (which to choose from, there are soooo many) again. That is what the timer is for.

The only idea I've personally liked is to hide the rarity of the object from everyone. That'd be nice. I mean, it would actually help the person who's name is on it get it, but that'd be the fault of the other players not caring. No different than it is now for whites, among other things.

Edit: FYI, because of what the timer is for, there is no "ninja-ing" as that implies stealing and that implies the loot was someone else's which isn't true.

Still repeating the same thing? People know what the timer is for and even if they don't it makes no difference at all to how they feel about the system. Putting people's names on the stuff is an obvious way to get them to feel ownership of the stuff with their name on it. Its a good way to fairly divvy up the loot.

People will feel ninjaed for one very important reason.....everyone who plays needs a share in the reward for playing which is the loot. If they don't get a share then they feel that the loot has been stolen from them. That makes plenty sense and repeating the intentions of the devs doesn't help at all. I don't see anyone going "ohhhhhhh now I get it, I don't mind the system at all now."

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TremorAcePV wrote:

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I personally would've just had a timer with no name. Then people could camp as they do now, but no one would be complaining about the current system.

lol

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iamstryker wrote:

Spoiler

Still repeating the same thing? People know what the timer is for and even if they don't it makes no difference at all to how they feel about the system. Putting people's names on the stuff is an obvious way to get them to feel ownership of the stuff with their name on it. Its a good way to fairly divvy up the loot.

People will feel ninjaed for one very important reason.....everyone who plays needs a share in the reward for playing which is the loot. If they don't get a share then they feel that the loot has been stolen from them. That makes plenty sense and repeating the intentions of the devs doesn't help at all. I don't see anyone going "ohhhhhhh now I get it, I don't mind the system at all now."

Yes, I will speak the truth so that everyone (especially those who complain about ninjas) will understand it.

Thus my suggestion about no name on the timer.

*Below this is directed at everything from "fairly divvy" onward*

Loot is fairly divvied up. A lot of things are, in fact, in groups. XP particularly (you get XP for what others kill, your contribution can be nothing towards it).

They want a reward? XP (Bonus XP, I might add, for being in a group too), all the white items which are free to be picked up, They get a share. Saying they don't is a lie.

I don't expect them too. They are fine with complaining about something they don't deserve to complain about. That's the simple truth.

Ignoring the fact that XP and whites are shared evenly in groups (whites because anyone can pick them up all the time) to say they feel like they get no reward isn't right.

If they feel like they get no reward for being in a group (not even to mention clearing areas faster, which means more XP, which means more everything like loot, clearing speed, etc) then the problem is them. Not the loot system.

My point is, your reward arguement is not a valid arguement, as, imo, they get a fair amount of reward.

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Still repeating the same thing? People know what the timer is for and even if they don't it makes no difference at all to how they feel about the system. Putting people's names on the stuff is an obvious way to get them to feel ownership of the stuff with their name on it. Its a good way to fairly divvy up the loot.

People will feel ninjaed for one very important reason.....everyone who plays needs a share in the reward for playing which is the loot. If they don't get a share then they feel that the loot has been stolen from them. That makes plenty sense and repeating the intentions of the devs doesn't help at all. I don't see anyone going "ohhhhhhh now I get it, I don't mind the system at all now."

You're correct, you are the "owner" of the item until the timer goes out. After that, the item is no longer yours. For the regular player this is tough to comprehend I guess.

You're correct except one crucial little tidbit. No one "needs" to have part of the bonus that is the loot that drops. For sure, they all "want" loot. If they "needed" the loot, they would actually pick it up, instead of standing around staring at a timer getting lower and lower with their name on it. I'm not sure how something can feel as if stolen, when you didn't have it in the first place. You only had an opportunity to pick it up before anyone else.

I had an opportunity to pre order a game, and I hesitated to take the man up on it. Another man came up right behind me and pre ordered the same game. Taking the last pre order.

You're saying I should feel that the chance got stolen from me. When it was my own hesitation that made me lose the chance.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

You're correct except one crucial little tidbit. No one "needs" to have part of the bonus that is the loot that drops. For sure, they all "want" loot.

Everyone needs loot and everyone deserves it who is a contributing member of the team. So if one player continually gets absolutely nothing he is justified in saying that all of his loot was stolen. "His" loot being his share of the reward for playing.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

If they "needed" the loot, they would actually pick it up, instead of standing around staring at a timer getting lower and lower with their name on it.

I can't take you seriously when you say stuff like this.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

I don't expect them too. They are fine with complaining about something they don't deserve to complain about. That's the simple truth.

This right here is your opinion not a fact or "The truth" as you call it.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

Ignoring the fact that XP and whites are shared evenly in groups (whites because anyone can pick them up all the time) to say they feel like they get no reward isn't right.

Lots of games have xp as a big part of the reward. This is one of the few where the focus of the reward is the loot. You have to get good loot to progress and getting it is a huge part of the fun of the game. Loot matters and always will.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

If they feel like they get no reward for being in a group (not even to mention clearing areas faster, which means more XP, which means more everything like loot, clearing speed, etc) then the problem is them. Not the loot system.

You can keep trying to tell people how to feel if you want.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

My point is, your reward arguement is not a valid arguement, as, imo, they get a fair amount of reward.

Ya sure. Another player is picking up upgrades through rares/uniques/currency and the other player just gets xp. That sounds super fair.

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iamstryker wrote:

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Jackel6672 wrote:

You're correct except one crucial little tidbit. No one "needs" to have part of the bonus that is the loot that drops. For sure, they all "want" loot.

Everyone needs loot and everyone deserves it who is a contributing member of the team. So if one player continually gets absolutely nothing he is justified in saying that all of his loot was stolen. "His" loot being his share of the reward for playing.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

If they "needed" the loot, they would actually pick it up, instead of standing around staring at a timer getting lower and lower with their name on it.

I can't take you seriously when you say stuff like this.

That's where were different, by contributing you don't deserve loot. You are not entitled to loot. You pick up loot along with your fellow players, and if you don't get any that's no ones fault but your own. If you refuse to adapt to the game and quickly get stuff with your name on it, then you will not get drops. (especially if you won't pick up things with another's name on it.)

By contributing you get experience.

Its called hesitation. Gameplay wise, many people suffer from this. Its instinct to be cautious in a hostile environment. The players that don't suffer from the hesitation get drops.

Its not the games fault you will not adapt to the style of game you are playing.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

5 posts of paragraphs to respond to. There goes 30 minutes.

1. At this point, they would have put the system in place if it was their belief it would be in their best interest. Games been in CB for what, 2 or so years?

2. What you put, was the community taking care of its self. That is a huge social aspect of the game that adds a dynamic function to it. One guy might kick "ninjas" in one game, and be a "ninja" in another. Nothing is stopping him, and its his choice. You use what you are given. FFA in non public games is working as intended, frankly the items are on the ground. Anyone can pick them up, just no one is in the party.

3. Its perfectly fair. A melee can be killed in one hit on high level maps, a ranged is no where near the action. If the melee stops attacking, chances are he will die if caught off guard. If ranged stops attacking, nothing happens except your melee friend may die.

Hes still taking the most risk vs reward.

4. Again, its their choice. It only sucks out fun if you let it. You have to understand that not everyone will get the drops they want. If you can't get around that, FFA games might not be your cup of tea. Not saying quit, just that you might not enjoy FFA games as much as other choices.

There may be other reasons for favoring a FFA system over an instanced one, but this melee and ranged, risk vs. reward thing isn't one of them. I've already gone over this several times in my previous posts, but let's be even more explicit here. What you're arguing is that because someone needs to attack mobs in close range, they are playing a more dangerous build or style and so should be rewarded for it via items.

First of all, just because someone is melee or closer to the enemy doesn't automatically mean that they are in greater risk of dying compared to a ranged. This is blatently obvious and it's easy to think up several examples. A glass cannon and a tank when fighting a group of flicker strike mobs. A glass cannon and a tank when fighting a group of piercing multi-projectile archers. Melee and close range characters by their very nature are built tankier. Sure, proximity to mobs does have something to do with risk but you're vastly oversimplifying things. It's not as obvious as you make it out to be.

However, let's be generous and assume that what you say is completely true, melee/close ranged characters automatically take much more risk to play. Except that it still doesn't follow that they should get more loot. Someone decides that they want to go run around naked and start punching monsters. Is he melee? Yes. Is he taking a huge amount of risk? Yes. Is he entitled to more items through the ingame loot system? I don't think so. Yet as of right now, the system clearly benefits players like him who do little to nothing in contributing to groups except looting everything in sight. Nothing to do with fairness.

You mentioned previously to kick players like that. Except that you're once again vastly oversimplifying things. It's nearly impossible to tell what's going on in most groups. There isn't some easy DPS meter next to each player's portrait. The ninja could very well be the party leader. Bottom line, the kick system isn't meant to be a bad excuse of a fix for underlying problems in FFA.

Now, let's say then that you add the qualifier that those risky melee guys aren't just standing around doing nothing and actually participating. Except once again, it still doesn't make sense to reward them with more items. Melee being too dangerous to play is a skill gem and/or passive tree problem. The logical thing to do here would be to buff the appropriate skill gems and/or passive tree nodes so that it isn't so dangerous. It has no relation at all to looting. To claim that their easier time in FFA is a solution for the fact that they may or may not be weaker than ranged is pretty dumb.

No, what i'm pretty sure you're actually arguing for is that the only people who deserve loot are those who are willing to be cutthroat and competitive about it. I don't have a problem with this. The problem lies with the fact that you're trying to take some moral high ground with vague statements about risk vs. reward. If you like FFA loot because you like FFA, that's fine. But don't argue that it's fair when it has absolutely nothing to do with any reasonable measure for "fairness".

I'll say this once again, leave in the current loot system but add in the option to group with instanced loot (you only see stuff that drops for you and can't interact with anyone else's items).

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iamstryker wrote:

Spoiler

This right here is your opinion not a fact or "The truth" as you call it.

Lots of games have xp as a big part of the reward. This is one of the few where the focus of the reward is the loot. You have to get good loot to progress and getting it is a huge part of the fun of the game. Loot matters and always will.

Ya sure. Another player is picking up upgrades through rares/uniques/currency and the other player just gets xp. That sounds super fair.

They don't deserve to complain about "their" loot being stolen, because it is not "their" loot until they pick it up. Then it can't be stolen.

The intent of the timer has everything to do with it. Because it wasn't intended for players to get the loot that has their name on it, it's not their loot. So them complaining about not getting it when it's not there's is not acceptable. This is a fact. Not my opinion.

If I complained to everyone that I wasn't the number one player on PoE because the game wasn't set up for me to win no matter what, would you say it's acceptable for me to complain about that? Or would you say it's not acceptable? That's taking what everyone is doing to an extreme, but it's the equivalent, if only magnified. And it's sad.

They have no right to complain about their loot being stolen when it's not their loot. And by this, they have no right to complain about the loot system.

I didn't say it didn't. But to ignore everything else as if it doesn't matter (XP and the like), would be wrong. They get plenty of reward for participating. They have whites. If they get "nothing" as you say, then that's their own fault. Especially with whites being everywhere all the time.

Fun Fact: The easiest way to get good loot for your build is to trade for it. You don't particularly need to farm for it to get it.

It is fair. Then the player who got XP can go solo loot farm on their own now that they are higher leveled and strong enough to do so. Perfectly fair.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

That's where were different, by contributing you don't deserve loot. You are not entitled to loot. You pick up loot along with your fellow players, and if you don't get any that's no ones fault but your own.

This game is not consistent in its execution. It is not just a competitive pvp only type of game. Its not an MMO where all players can always influence your game. It doesn't make a lot of sense that you can play single player and get all of the rewards for your efforts and then jump into public games and receive little to none. Its confusing to the playerbase to be like this. Either go all out cutthroat or provide options for different playstyles. Makes a lot more sense. I think all players should feel entitled to loot. I don't think it makes sense to tell a player that to go solo or only play with friends in order to not have to deal with loot competition.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

If you refuse to adapt to the game and quickly get stuff with your name on it, then you will not get drops. (especially if you won't pick up things with another's name on it.)

Your still acting like people only lose loot when they don't immediately try to pick it up. This is not true at all. Your last statement there encourages people to not cooperate with eachother. I feel thats a downfall of public games.

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Jackel6672 wrote:

Its not the games fault you will not adapt to the style of game you are playing.

This game as a whole does not have the style your acting like it has. Only one part of it "public games" is forcing this mechanic on the playerbase. Don't refer to the game in this way because this game is not competitive pvp only. Its just not.