Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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Panda413 wrote:

I believe when you have several hundred unique opinions to sort out, discarding the ones that lack perspective is a good first step to coming to a good conclusion.

Please describe your method for determining when a viewpoint lacks perspective.
What flags or trigger words do you go by?

This isn't a challenge or disagreement. I have a feeling you may be able to convey something I can use in real life. I have a personal belief that the smartest person in the room will be the one who does the most to learn each other person's perspective. I have a feeling you have a concept that can be plugged directly into that.

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moikpei wrote:

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Panda413 wrote:

I believe when you have several hundred unique opinions to sort out, discarding the ones that lack perspective is a good first step to coming to a good conclusion.

Please describe your method for determining when a viewpoint lacks perspective.
What flags or trigger words do you go by?

This isn't a challenge or disagreement. I have a feeling you may be able to convey something I can use in real life. I have a personal belief that the smartest person in the room will be the one who does the most to learn each other person's perspective. I have a feeling you have a concept that can be plugged directly into that.

I 100% agree with your personal belief. There is a great TED Talk (can't find link at the moment) about sociology and the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and consider things from their perspective. It has really stuck with me. Although that presentation touched on some much larger concepts like war and cultural differences, I see it every day in things like this discussion and public reaction to just about any event.

The flag or trigger word I'm focusing on in today's comments is "There is NO good reason to have FFA only." It immediately identifies people that are not considering the perspective of the devs and players that like FFA loot.

I never took debate in high school unfortunately, but I met a debate teacher once that said she liked to give students the topic and side they would be debating, and then force them to switch sides right before the debate actually started. It showed who was more prepared and knowledgeable on the subject. I think that is brilliant.

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Panda413 wrote:

Indisputable fact #1 - Loot mechanics create a different gameplay experience from one another.

Indisputable fact #2 - GGG has stated their motivation in making PoE was to recreate the gameplay experience they enjoyed playing D2. They felt ARPG games released since then strayed away from some of the core mechanics they felt made D2 such an enjoyable experience for them. Competitive loot is one of those mechanics they wanted to bring back.

Indisputable fact #3 - If GGG offers loot options, some players will never choose to play FFA loot. Those players will never experience the gameplay the developers intended while originally developing the game.


Snipped for length of post.

Your whole post is about the single greatest thing I've read in this thread. You my friend present a good argument and know what you're talking about. Thank you for taking the time to write that so I wouldn't have to do it myself.

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Panda413 wrote:

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Indisputable fact #1 - Loot mechanics create a different gameplay experience from one another.

Indisputable fact #2 - GGG has stated their motivation in making PoE was to recreate the gameplay experience they enjoyed playing D2. They felt ARPG games released since then strayed away from some of the core mechanics they felt made D2 such an enjoyable experience for them. Competitive loot is one of those mechanics they wanted to bring back.

Indisputable fact #3 - If GGG offers loot options, some players will never choose to play FFA loot. Those players will never experience the gameplay the developers intended while originally developing the game.

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Simple solution… adjust the loot system in default/hardcore and use the current system for some of the race leagues.

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Panda413 wrote:

Indisputable fact #1 - Loot mechanics create a different gameplay experience from one another.

This is not a reason for there to only be one looting mechanic.

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Panda413 wrote:

Indisputable fact #2 - GGG has stated their motivation in making PoE was to recreate the gameplay experience they enjoyed playing D2. They felt ARPG games released since then strayed away from some of the core mechanics they felt made D2 such an enjoyable experience for them. Competitive loot is one of those mechanics they wanted to bring back.

Thats true but if they want to change it for the masses is that not also their call since they are the devs....?

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Panda413 wrote:

Indisputable fact #3 - If GGG offers loot options, some players will never choose to play FFA loot. Those players will never experience the gameplay the developers intended while originally developing the game.

Again, not a reason for there to only be one looting mechanic. Players can make their own choices if the devs want to provide the option. Who cares if they don't want to experience the so called "intended" way. It doesn't affect others who can still play FFA.

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Panda413 wrote:

Considering these 3 simple facts, we can form the conclusion that ONE good reason for FFA to be the only loot mechanic is that is the way the developers of the game intended to be played. Pretty simple huh?

Ya, simply not a valid reason. Leave the devs to make their own game.

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Panda413 wrote:

However, if you say there is "NO GOOD REASON" for FFA only, then you are insulting the game and the developers.

Thats being a little dramatic. Its not an insult to the game or the devs. Its a compliment that people love the game enough to want to enjoy public games.

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Panda413 wrote:

You are saying they don't know what makes a good video game. You are saying their personal opinion about the ARPG experience is irrelevant and you are the only person that matters. You are saying that all games, art, music, movies, etc should be created to cater to the highest % of customers possible and not be based on the creator's ideas and desire.

Not really. The devs are free to do what they want, they just need to make the decision and back it up instead of continuing to ask for more feedback. Its not that hard to issue a statement and close the threads down discussing it. It has and always will be their call.

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Panda413 wrote:

If you tell Metallica they have to record country, reggae, and pop versions of their songs to give listeners more options and appeal to a wider audience they would think you are crazy. Would you say "but... options!"? Would you say there is NO good reason for them to not do that?

Pretty bad metaphor here. People don't want core PoE changed, they want to enjoy public games in a strictly PVE way. Thats not as big a changed as you guys are insinuating that it is. I would say most players virtually never play this game competitively, why is that such an issue?

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Panda413 wrote:

Again, I'm not saying this ONE reason should compel you to change your opinion. I'm saying if you are incapable of grasping and acknowledging this reason without needing me to hold your hand and walk you through it, I don't feel like your opinion about loot is worth consideration. I've stated this perspective more than once and so far, nobody so far has been able to convince me otherwise. To me, it's common sense.

You know it would be a lot easier to take you guys who talk like this seriously if you ever at all acknowledged the arguments and "reasons" given as to why people really want these options. I really have never seen you do that. We all have at least recognized that it is very important that FFA stay around. Talking down to people saying stuff like "hold your hand" isn't called for. People can disagree with you, its not the end of the world.

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Panda413 wrote:

I 100% agree with your personal belief. There is a great TED Talk (can't find link at the moment) about sociology and the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and consider things from their perspective. It has really stuck with me. Although that presentation touched on some much larger concepts like war and cultural differences, I see it every day in things like this discussion and public reaction to just about any event.

Was it Chimamanda Adichi/The Danger of a Single Story?

But as for the flag/trigger, you're just looking for absolutes as a starting point to begin assessing? No/none/can't/won't/ever/never, etc?

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Panda413 wrote:

The reason you are able to convince yourself you are right is you find excuses to dismiss anyone that suggests otherwise.

Sounds a lot like what you do as well.

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Panda413 wrote:

As long as you believe there is NO good reason to have FFA only, your perspective holds no value. Whether you agree with that statement or not is irrelevant.

Hold on. Because he believes there is no good reason to have FFA only his perspective holds no value??? WTF??

That's like me saying. Just because you believe there is no good reason to have looting options, your perspective holds no value.

You have a way of completely dismissing people that's mind boggling.

I want to say that I have never and will never disagree with something someone says just because of my own bias. I consider and think about every argument the FFA side has ever given (I really mean that). However I find them all far too lacking to ever say that any of them are "good" reasons to have FFA only. There are however some very good reasons to provide looting options even if it wasn't the original intent of the devs.

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Panda413 wrote:

Indisputable fact #1 - Loot mechanics create a different gameplay experience from one another.

Indisputable fact #2 - GGG has stated their motivation in making PoE was to recreate the gameplay experience they enjoyed playing D2. They felt ARPG games released since then strayed away from some of the core mechanics they felt made D2 such an enjoyable experience for them. Competitive loot is one of those mechanics they wanted to bring back.


Indisputable fact #3 - If GGG offers loot options, some players will never choose to play FFA loot. Those players will never experience the gameplay the developers intended while originally developing the game.

Just remember that it's primarily a single player game.

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Panda413 wrote:

Considering these 3 simple facts, we can form the conclusion that ONE good reason for FFA to be the only loot mechanic is that is the way the developers of the game intended to be played. Pretty simple huh?

That is not a good reason at all. It's a very bad reason. I would hardly call it a reason at all. It would only be a good reason under the assumption that the devs are infallible.

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Panda413 wrote:

However, if you say there is "NO GOOD REASON" for FFA only, then you are insulting the game and the developers. You are saying they don't know what makes a good video game.

If they are insulted by me telling them that they have made a very bad decision then fine, I insult them.
But back in the real world there is no insult there.

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Panda413 wrote:

You are saying their personal opinion about the ARPG experience is irrelevant and you are the only person that matters. You are saying that all games, art, music, movies, etc should be created to cater to the highest % of customers possible and not be based on the creator's ideas and desire.

Utter nonsense. Don't put words in my mouth. You are not even following logic.

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Panda413 wrote:

Again, I'm not saying this ONE reason should compel you to change your opinion. I'm saying if you are incapable of grasping and acknowledging this reason without needing me to hold your hand and walk you through it, I don't feel like your opinion about loot is worth consideration. I've stated this perspective more than once and so far, nobody so far has been able to convince me otherwise. To me, it's common sense.

You are just trying to find a cheap way to deal with the real arguments. No one is buying it.
It does not invalidate anything. "good reason" is still a vauge term and what is a good reason for you may not be a good reason for me.

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Panda413 wrote:

PS - everything KillBilly types just adds more supporting evidence to my first comment in this thread today. :)

Yep, the bias comming.

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iamstryker wrote:

You know it would be a lot easier to take you guys who talk like this seriously if you ever at all acknowledged the arguments and "reasons" given as to why people really want these options.

Sorry to not reply to each point stryker.. but I feel like I'm flooding the thread now.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Even though you are saying it from the other side, we are saying the same thing.

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iamstryker wrote:

I really have never seen you do that.

It's in my history.. but in summary, Loot options are a good idea because many players do not want to compete for loot. They want to play with other players and not against them. Given things like lag and other factors the competition for loot might not even be a fair competition. Some players feel so strongly about this that they might not continue to play or support the game. GGG is a for-profit company that relies on having lots of players that are willing to spend $$ on the game or the game and company risks not being as profitable. Chances are, people that like FFA won't quit because GGG adds options. So from a financial perspective, giving players options is logical. If GGG adds options to appeal to more players that give more money that benefits all players because it means more content, more updates, and maybe even new titles from GGG in the future.

(It's quite a compelling argument) ;)

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iamstryker wrote:

We all have at least recognized that it is very important that FFA stay around. Talking down to people saying stuff like "hold your hand" isn't called for. People can disagree with you, its not the end of the world.

I think you are getting away from the single point I'm trying to make. People can disagree with me. However, "There are NO good reasons for ffa only." is not a true or valid statement. This isn't disagreeing with me, it's disagreeing with reality. You said as much in the first sentence of your comment. I'm not talking down to people that grasp that simple concept. I'm talking down to people that need me to author 200+ word comments explaining common sense and still won't get it. You might feel offended because you share the same end opinion with those people.. but rest assured, if you can see both sides of the debate, you aren't who I am referring to.

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Argh.. and that response was about 25x as long as I intended. I need to improve on making my points more succinct. I just feel like whenever I try that I just open myself up to being misinterpreted.

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Sickness wrote:

blah blah

Lastly... I think sickness's problem is not understanding the difference in the word "reason" and "conclusion".

The reason I explained to you is a valid reason. It is not the only reason one should consider when coming to a conclusion.

Once again, everything you've typed since page ~547 is supporting evidence to my claim that some of the loudest supporters of "FFA only SUCKS" are incapable of adding any intelligent content to the discussion.

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Panda413 wrote:

Lastly... I think sickness's problem is not understanding the difference in the word "reason" and "conclusion".

The reason I explained to you is a valid reason. It is not the only reason one should consider when coming to a conclusion.

Once again, everything you've typed since page ~547 is supporting evidence to my claim that some of the loudest supporters of "FFA only SUCKS" are incapable of adding any intelligent content to the discussion.

There is a big difference between 'good reason' and 'reason'. If you can't even understand that then you should really not talk about other peoples intelligence.

You still have not explained why the reason you stated is a good reason?
And if the devs actually add IL, then that becomes the new intention of the devs. So your only good reason is nothing but air.


You write alot, but you say very little.


You are basicly saying that if you don't think that any reason for having FFA only is good, then nothing you say has value.
Do you not see how utterly ridiculous that is?