Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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ManiaCCC wrote:

Stop avoiding the question..

Stop avoiding the question? I answered it clearly. Looks like somebody is now creating strawman arguments.

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Sickness wrote:

Fair enough. But you only explained why it isn't important for YOU. It's an important issue for me and others.

Just to me? Well anyone that truly cares about the game or grouping will find a good group to play with, the people constantly in public games and crying about the loot are generally casual players, people who will be gone in a month anyway.

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mobutu wrote:

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Nicholas_Steel wrote:

The more options you have (Multiple timers) the more segregated the community is as you'll have players only playing with X timer, some only playing with Y timer and some playing with Z timer etc.

Adding an option to choose between Instanced and FFA loot means that the community is segregated in 3 ways. Those that play alone, those that play in a party with Instanced loot and those that Play in a party with FFA loot.

No, community is not segregated, Its still the same economy, the same chat etc
Its just that anyone is playing with the desired loot-system in place.

Actually public game list will be segregated, that's true.. But question if how much impact it will have..if any at all..

I think there is a real danger that FFA game will become almost non-existent .. but what it will prove?... it will just prove what majority players want.. but of course..this is just theory.

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oBLACKIECHANo wrote:

You know what's funny, I bet the devs would of thought the same thing when they read some of these whiny posts...

I'm pretty sure the devs are more mature in thinking than you are.
Anyways, i've been in closed beta for more than a year and i've seen the devs changing their initial plan/vision based on constructive feedback from beta-testers.
I don't see any reason that the loot debate should be any different.

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oBLACKIECHANo wrote:

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ManiaCCC wrote:

Stop avoiding the question..

Stop avoiding the question? I answered it clearly. Looks like somebody is now creating strawman arguments.

SO here is the question again..why are you against giving players options so you can enjoy game in your way and other players can enjoy game differently?

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oBLACKIECHANo wrote:

Just to me? Well anyone that truly cares about the game or grouping will find a good group to play with, the people constantly in public games and crying about the loot are generally casual players, people who will be gone in a month anyway.

I want instanced loot for my private party.

I've been here longer than you, does that make my opinion worth more than yours?

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ManiaCCC wrote:

Actually public game list will be segregated, that's true

Thats true, but not the community.
Community is segregated by different leagues, like default, hardcore, cutthroat, race, etc.
There'll be the same game played in the same league, with the same economy, same ladder etc.
Just the loot-system being optionable. No harm at all.

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iamstryker wrote:

Right now the player base is confused by this system. Are the items mine because they had my name or what? Why did GGG even make the concession to appease ranged players and those with internet issues in the first place? They heard the complaints from far less people than now and decided to put in the timer which many FFA players don't like at all. The system still isn't fair so why did they even try?

My original point was that if they want to be ultra niche then come right out and say it and end the debates. Say that they won't make any concessions no matter how many people don't like the competitiveness in public games.

Thanks for the clarification, I can absolutely see where you're coming from now - some more concrete word from the devs would definitely go a long way towards ending this debate. The last I've heard, they said it's working as intended but they're also discussing other options, so we might actually up getting a different system eventually - and until then I guess the flamewar will rage on. :P

First of all, sry if i missed some proposals allready made, some suggestions allready layed out in this thread. I tend to read every once in a while whats new in the everlong loot debate, but you can hardly cover all discussions.

1.) IMHO the only thing, taking this debate forward, is to implement a poll system for the forums. This has been demanded since a long time ago. Its the only tool, to get valuable information about how players feel about the current loot system. No developer can be asked to scroll through 1k posts and record what each post said.

So i beg you GGG, implement a poll system and run it with the questions:
A.) are you fully content how it is
B.) you wish more to be done in the direction of FFA
C.) you wish more to be done in the direction of instanced loot
D.) lets party founders decide the rules

2.) the cut throat argument gets disproved every second post or so. And fighting over loot does not give you a special gameplay experience you would talk excitingly about.

3.)I wish to ask the community, What does collecting loot on place, during fights, in the current gameflow, mean to you?
Do you get a satisfaction out of it collecting the loot the moment it drops?
(e.f. running inside a deadly mob just to get your alchemy orb etc.)
Or would you rather kill mobs, clear a level or atleast a pathway to the next wp/gate and deal with loot later?

4.) Do you aswell think, that every player in a party should have the right and the ability to get some loot as a reward for participation (and thus increasing loot quantity and quality), no matter what class or what kind of gamestyle he sees fit as part of his character? Do you aswell think, that loot is in fact crucial for beeing able to trade or get and forge new items and thus for your own progress in game?

(Sure you can farm alone, but then again the drop is different etc. etc. its possible to play for exp in party and then play again alone for loot, but this is only due to problems of the system and is not really a gameplay feature you would want to advertise)

My proposal reads like this (as a recollection of ideas)
-white and magic items have timers. or none at all.
-currency items, gems, rares and uniques get randomly allocated to the players around, thus instanced loot.
BUT: items can be seen, the name of the owner remains and you cant collect items of different owners

NOW: with the focus on gameplay and (one mans trash...), (see questions 3.)
and as it was mentioned, that public/party-guild stash tabs will be implemented:
Why not implement a loot-window, based on that party/public stash tab. In this, you can see all items dropped, the ones you own are green outlined for pickup.
*You can directly grab the item into your inventory or identify it in the loot window.
*You can with a mouse click drop it, as giving up the ownership, thus others can grab it in the window
*If you leave the area before managing your loot->all your loots is dropped as public
*Stuff you pick up during the run and drop again (if identified, to prevent dropping items due to full inventar)->treated as public loot in loot window and at the place.

Benefits of this proposal:
*Stay focused on fighting. Once you have a quiet second or so, you can directly grab everything which belongs to you, or open the loot window to see what others discarded and manage your own loot.
*Due to the nature that only rares,gems etc. get instanced..and the fact that you will mostly collect your currency items and gems on place, i wouldnt expect the loot window to get too crowded, at least not until the endgame maps. And loot windows can be downsized to a spreadsheet with the common item info...if too many items are dropped.

What it requires:
-Players must sumbit to the fact, that they are all treated equal. no ninja. no fighting.
-items generated from the drop system have to be linked with tables/stash tab, used for the lootwindow.
-item ownership must be managed and implemented as new subset of (intern) properties

As for the ideology behind FFA...again, the only thing to get a clue about the overall opinion is to have a poll.

POE is a great game. And for me the current system wont spoil it. But its not optimum. Its not in any kind a revolutionary concept for better gameflow and overall player satisfaction.

A poll won't help because everyone doesn't use a forum or want to use a forum. You would only be taking a sample from a few to determine a major decision for the masses.

After reading almost a hundred pages I came up to this conclusion...WOW

How close minded can this community be?

First of all, there is a 5second time window for you to grab your loot. There is not a single excuse that you couldn't make it. NOT a single one. Being squishy doesn't mean shit, my 50 level witch has 108 hp and I ninja pick up everything. The whole ninjaing is throwed out of the window if actually people CLICKED their loot. I ninja a lot too, but probably because someone is sleeping on his keyboard or something.

Now, that doesn't mean by any way that FFA is ok. It's not, it's horrible. The current implementation is even worse than a real free FFA would be. The problems are, with the current system, instead of people FIGHTING mobs, they stop and drool for 5 seconds over gear. Yesterday in a docks run I had 3 people (THREE) camping a scroll of wisdom for god's sake. This is NOT giving a cutthroat feeling at all. It slows down the game CONSIDERABLY. Try to party with friends and tell them to disregard all loot, you'll clear instances at least twice as fast. It's not a hardcore game mechanic, not giving a fuck about your team or the enemies heading your way is NOT by any means hardcore. A hardcore mechanic would be something difficult, involving skill. Camping loot while your teammate kills things that are trying to kill YOU is neither difficult nor skill based. It's just retarded. It even takes away the atmosphere. You are supposed to be a group of exiles trying to survive, I get that. How is that scroll of wisdom going to promote your survivability when there are tons of brain eating zombies heading your way while you are waiting for the timer of the scroll to expire? IT DOESNT. So all in all, current FFA is UNREALISTIC, slows down the pacing and promotes loot camping instead of fighting.

Now you may say, then a real free FFA would be better. Conceptually, yes. But again, ranged classes have an inherent disadvantage and you wouldn't avoid the "stop hitting mobs and rush to pick up" mentality, which as said before, is unrealistic and takes away any atmosphere.

So what do I propose? I propose the same system as now BUT with an increased timer, like 10 or 15 seconds, but allow ANYONE to pick it up during those seconds. If someone does pick up my item before the timer runs off, give me the option to cut his head off (show the Help / Kill vote as in OAK for the party, that would be awesome), and whoever wins, takes the princess back to castle. Or the item. Or a random drop from the enemies inventory or something. Couple that with the xp loss, someone would think TWICE before picking up loot.

Now that DOES up to the atmosphere. How so? Again, you are a group of exiles doing everything to survive. It's only reasonable that there WILL be fights within the group over ninja looting. It doesn't take away the "do anything to survive" griefing part of picking someone else's items, but you need BALLS to pull it off. So, if you grief people, expect to be griefed back, and be prepared cause I'm coming for you. That way a hardcore gamer would truely point out that he indeed is hardcore and not hiding behind the game mechanics griefing people.

Cause that's what's happening now. You can yell all you want that "THIS IS HARDCORE" but currently, it's not. It's carebearism at its FINEST. You can one way grief people protected by the game mechanics and you claim you are hardcore. Hurr durr, I got flash news for you. You are not!! And it's actually hillarious people calling other people casuals for disliking the FFA system. Everyone, and I mean everyone, no matter how unskilled he is, can literally stop hitting mobs and grab ALL the loot. I can even teach my dog how to spam click shiny items. So those people claiming they are hardcore indeed are the BIGGEST carebears in here, since they grief other people while being protected by game mechanics. If someone IS indeed hardcore, he would maniacally grief EVERYONE, but ONLY when there are consequences for that. No one self called hardcore gamer would "exploit" game mechanics for griefing and that's what this community does and then proclaims themselves hardcore gamers. Please, give me a break