Out of touch director refusing to acknowledge what everyone is thinking

"

saashaa#5518 wrote:

everyone want slower, more methodical and harder combat.

This game fails at all 3 spectacularly. Endgame is more 1-button oriented and full screen clear requiring than PoE which can also be played in other ways, this games combat is definitely far less methodical than PoE's, and way easier just boring.

"

KingAlamar#4071 wrote:

I can see both sides when it comes to dodge-rolling while mapping ; monster vs. player numbers & speed ; etc....



When mapping and there's hordes of (fast) enemies bearing down on me a dodge roll seems like an odd choice when the action is hot & heavy. I would contend that for this mode I'd want SUPERIOR movement compared to monsters so I can best use the environment to my advantage. Whether this is through base player speed, movement skills, effective crowd control skills or similar doesn't matter but the ability to move faster (better) than enemies is a staple of my expectations in this sort of environment.


On the other hand I don't mind "meaningful combat" when it's 1-on-1 in a curated arena / scenario. Here a stick & move, dodge roll, look for an opening & strike seems perfectly reasonable.


YMMV

This is actually what they are trying to do. But they are not doing it the way some players want e.g. more speed, more speed less dodge. Because this would result in you having to scrap everything, redo the whole balancing and still have same issues if you don't hit the balance on the first try. Which we all should now by this day and age is pretty much impossible.

THey do not see that this is a balancing issue. They also don't listen to Jonathan and Mark. As soon es they hear something they don't like and don't understand they are yapping and insulting everyone.

Instead of seriously giving their words a though or informing themselfs about the game balance topic. There are some great works about that out there from people who actually know what they are doing. And I think Jonathan & Mark are competent in that regard. Its just not as simple as people want it to be.

"

DIOandTheWorld#7430 wrote:

"

GunHammers#5068 wrote:

If you break it down you have.
Its so obvious that you neither play this game nor have you played PoE.
There exist absolutely zero options, you HAVE TO dodge roll in this game. It is not an option, the entire game is balanced around you absolutely needing to use it. You can not build enough defenses in this game to not need it, and if you claim that you are a liar.

Combat in PoE is also infinitely more tactical and you actually use more abilities in it, it hasn't been 1-key based in like 7 years at least.
What strengths does PoE2 have? It has so far failed at every single game mechanic. Literally every single mechanic in the game is a dumbed down, inferior version of its PoE equivalent.

Man I roll up in poe get whirling blades and spam my 6/2 proj skill. I don't have to worry about getting swarmed ill just whirling blades and keep spamming.
fighting a boss? whirling blades and keep spamming.

You can even go a more passive approach with totems taking nearly all action time away from you.

Have you tried creating walls in POE2? have you tried slowing the enemies with skills and support set ups? Maim? Hinder? chilled ground? blind? anything? I imagine you can get very far in poe2 never using dodge so claiming its a requirement just seems really short sighted. Anything you need to dodge is fairly telegraphed. I can only think of the viper boss' final stab from her army where you have to dodge to avoid it. Otherwise you could walk through them. There is an issue in that part of the fight with the AOE layering but that was addressed in the recent interview.

I don't mean to pick on you but I have a feeling you're getting fed negative bias and not trying to find solutions or trying to play in another way to get a different perspective, if you keep doing the same thing and getting the same unwanted result TRY something else. Try what I suggested. You probably wont enjoy those solutions so thats fine this game isn't for everyone. POE1 isn't for everyone. I'm happy BOTH games still exist.

"

Sanmie#9654 wrote:

"

KingAlamar#4071 wrote:

I can see both sides when it comes to dodge-rolling while mapping ; monster vs. player numbers & speed ; etc....



When mapping and there's hordes of (fast) enemies bearing down on me a dodge roll seems like an odd choice when the action is hot & heavy. I would contend that for this mode I'd want SUPERIOR movement compared to monsters so I can best use the environment to my advantage. Whether this is through base player speed, movement skills, effective crowd control skills or similar doesn't matter but the ability to move faster (better) than enemies is a staple of my expectations in this sort of environment.


On the other hand I don't mind "meaningful combat" when it's 1-on-1 in a curated arena / scenario. Here a stick & move, dodge roll, look for an opening & strike seems perfectly reasonable.


YMMV

This is actually what they are trying to do. But they are not doing it the way some players want e.g. more speed, more speed less dodge. Because this would result in you having to scrap everything, redo the whole balancing and still have same issues if you don't hit the balance on the first try. Which we all should now by this day and age is pretty much impossible.

THey do not see that this is a balancing issue. They also don't listen to Jonathan and Mark. As soon es they hear something they don't like and don't understand they are yapping and insulting everyone.

Instead of seriously giving their words a though or informing themselfs about the game balance topic. There are some great works about that out there from people who actually know what they are doing. And I think Jonathan & Mark are competent in that regard. Its just not as simple as people want it to be.

Jonathan isn't gonna fall in love with you if you defend his vision buddy.
We are far more informed and capable of understanding the games design than you, you are just an NPC repeating your programming lines.
"giving their words a thought" Jonathans replies in the interview were pure ego and inability to acknowledge real issues that the game has, he just denied their existence and said "No, I am right" almost to everything, when these problems are complained about by majority of the playerbase.

"this would result in you having to scrap everything, redo the whole balancing"
It was them doing this in the first place that resulted in the dumpster fire of a gameplay we got. They had a completely different version of this game years ago and it was obviously better.

Out of touch poe1 player refusing to acknowledge what everyone is thinking

"

DIOandTheWorld#7430 wrote:

"

Sanmie#9654 wrote:

"

KingAlamar#4071 wrote:

I can see both sides when it comes to dodge-rolling while mapping ; monster vs. player numbers & speed ; etc....



When mapping and there's hordes of (fast) enemies bearing down on me a dodge roll seems like an odd choice when the action is hot & heavy. I would contend that for this mode I'd want SUPERIOR movement compared to monsters so I can best use the environment to my advantage. Whether this is through base player speed, movement skills, effective crowd control skills or similar doesn't matter but the ability to move faster (better) than enemies is a staple of my expectations in this sort of environment.


On the other hand I don't mind "meaningful combat" when it's 1-on-1 in a curated arena / scenario. Here a stick & move, dodge roll, look for an opening & strike seems perfectly reasonable.


YMMV

This is actually what they are trying to do. But they are not doing it the way some players want e.g. more speed, more speed less dodge. Because this would result in you having to scrap everything, redo the whole balancing and still have same issues if you don't hit the balance on the first try. Which we all should now by this day and age is pretty much impossible.

THey do not see that this is a balancing issue. They also don't listen to Jonathan and Mark. As soon es they hear something they don't like and don't understand they are yapping and insulting everyone.

Instead of seriously giving their words a though or informing themselfs about the game balance topic. There are some great works about that out there from people who actually know what they are doing. And I think Jonathan & Mark are competent in that regard. Its just not as simple as people want it to be.

Jonathan isn't gonna fall in love with you if you defend his vision buddy.
We are far more informed and capable of understanding the games design than you, you are just an NPC repeating your programming lines.
"giving their words a thought" Jonathans replies in the interview were pure ego and inability to acknowledge real issues that the game has, he just denied their existence and said "No, I am right" almost to everything, when these problems are complained about by majority of the playerbase.

"this would result in you having to scrap everything, redo the whole balancing"
It was them doing this in the first place that resulted in the dumpster fire of a gameplay we got. They had a completely different version of this game years ago and it was obviously better.

Insulting someone does not make any of your "arguments" stronger.
The player base knowing so much more about how a game needs to balanced was shown countless times in the last few days.

People start yapping after everything that was said. Even if it made sense.
Jonathan not having the regal problem for example. He did something completely different in his play test then a big part of the community. And people Immediately started insulting him without considering that due to them developing the game they have a lot more knowledge than anybody of us can ever have about how the game works. Which subconsciously will bias his play testing. But no he was accused to not even play test even though some creators have stated they in fact know that those two both play the game.

People screaming after the very fast hotfix with monster hp that this is not the way how to fix it while stuff started to feel a lot better for most of the players right after the first hotfix went live. It wasn't perfect but I never said that anything is perfect.

Sorry but thinking that you know more about how things should work just is wishful thinking and strongly dunning Kruger. I'm a software dev with 12 years of experience in giant research infrastructure project. And i have understanding of complex systems. But even I deem myself not be competent to make any suggestions for balance due to how those changes might affect implicit things I'm not aware of myself. I see the current state and see stuff which is wrong but I try to identify to pinpoint properly without going in with a confirmation bias.

Why it feels wrong to me instead of immediately coming to the conclusion that only because it feels bad for "ME" it must be removed from the game and instead rolled back to something I know worked without even knowing why this doesn't and the old known one did. And parry as well as dodge feel perfectly fine in a lot of cases.
The problem is the rest which make them feel very bad.

Just an example I ran a tier 7 map while progressing maps before doing this forum break. I juced it up a bit more than the ones before it to test if my build can handle it. There where 2 monster groups in that map with monsters which where insanely fast and rushed me.

I died 1 time and was on my last respaw. I carried on and hit reasonable monster groups I could parry them, dodge some of the big monsters well telegraphed attacks and had fun actually playing the game.
And then I hit another group which was full of very fast monsters while containing a the rare which spams chaos orbs having to run in circles for like 2 minutes and somehow slowly clear the group. I was on edge the whole time, felt like i had no chance. Not a pleasant experience the overall fun i had before was erased by it like it never happened. But those where only 2 gorups on the whole map.
Others might have a lot more fast rushing groups. I could now say yes we need to be faster so we can run away oooor we can adjust the amount and speed of the rushing monster packs like they are planning to do so the experience gets to the same level as the rest of the map i had before.

Fast mobs are also not an issue in general the problem is that they might be to strong and not to fast. I needed to Zerg them down because I was unable to do combos and my non combo spells didn't do enough dmg to them.

Now people say then buff dmg so we can just blast them. Eleminating the challange to deal with all mobs.

Mark was suggesting lowering the amount of hp of fast monsters and the amount inside groups. Which is not a bad idea if you "THINK" about it. This would allow you still play methodical in the other groups while also having to deal with some fast but easily dying monsters using different abilities.
A situation which needs adaptation but is not overwhelming like it currently is.

What is so wrong with that concept that you need to insult 2 man doing their job trying to create a great game?

Ridicules.

And with this wall of text im back to playing a few more maps. If people can't or don't want to understand this point and instead insult each other about their self perceived perfect solution. This discussion is pointless.

"

slayerfum#7437 wrote:

I disagree. Everything you said is what I think is actually wrong with POE 1 and other arpgs. Stiff, wacky, and not enjoyable. Nothing feels grounded with that type of gameplay. I think monsters and their modifiers are the real problem along with zone sizes in general. Not our speed or dodge roll.

Dodge roll is absolutely an issue for one its fucking stupid and im sick and tired of everyone pretending like its needed in a game or the game isn't good and second you could have mirror tier gear across the board but if you miss a dodge roll in certain boss fights you're dead. That is TRASH game design. The game is balanced around dodge roll, period. You can see it in the execution of all pinnacle bosses and their moves for the most part.

"

DIOandTheWorld#7430 wrote:

Dodge roll and parry feel completely out of place and unfun in a game where you fight packs of 20-100 enemies at once. This is not a Souls game where you pull 1 mob at a time or maybe a few, and look carefully at what their next action is. Its impossible to do that with a huge monster pack and isometric camera view.

Jonathan needs to realize an ARPG just feels much better without any mechanics like this and if the player has nice movement speed and survival is dependent on:
- Good positioning and Movement Skills
- Defenses actually mattering, unlike in this game

Delete the dodge roll and parry from the game, put Quicksilver flasks in.

The only thing Johnathan is out of touch with is expecting stuck up PoE 1 fans to somehow like the game.

They will try but I hope they give up on that dream asap and just keep making more PoE 1 content like they said. The quicker they accept you'll never like this game the better it'll be for everyone.

"

Sanmie#9654 wrote:

Ok another question why are people not allowed to enjoy a different twist on the ARPG genre? There are plenty of ARPG's out there hey people are always screaming for POE1? Why don't you play POE1 then?

I simply can not understand that people are so forced into a view on how stuff is "supposed" to work.
This would also mean every game trying something new is automatically bad and can not be enjoyed by others if its not at least 99% like all the other ones in the same genre.
They are trying to give arpgs a new twist and looking at the current state on how things are going it's one that works. It has issues in the current balance state but balancing is a veeeeery complicated topic and rome wasn't build in a day either.
But Looking at how people currently scream and insult the devs for doing what they are doing i doubt that anything can change the mindset but we always did it that way.

I think a large part of the problem is that GGG got a lot of people excited and invested in the idea that they're making a sequel to Path of Exile 1. It's entirely reasonable to expect a certain degree of continuity and similarity; otherwise, it's not really a sequel. So I do kind of understand where the "it should be more like PoE 1" idea is coming from.

If I convince you to pay me for early access to a game I'll call Batman: Arkham City 2, but then it turns out to actually be a dating simulator, well, you'd probably be pretty disappointed too.

A lot of people expected "something like" Path of Exile 1, not a slow tactical fantasy survival RPG, which happens to take place in the Path of Exile universe.

Disagree. Not everyone as I am one of them who really prefers this new game. They are between a rock and hard place trying to please two very different kinds of players.

If PoE1 new league didn't get delayed so much, I feel like there wouldn't be so much backlash.