It's 2025, and XP Penalties on Death Still Exist?

"

Bacon_Overlord#1834 wrote:

Uhh.. it's not up to them what people's tolerances or goals are though.

It is not up to them to decide player's tolerances or goals, but it IS up to them to decide gameplay difficulty level, and decide where they stand on the difficulty-to-playerbase-size scale. This is common for ANY game who sells itself as being some degree of hard. PoE does it, the Souls series does it, many roguelikes do it.

You misconstrue the concept of gatekeeping. You gatekeep when the intent is SPECIFICALLY to drive people away from something, purely to make something seem "more elite" (ie. you don't want others to have what you have). Wanting to design a game that is complicated because your target audience is the one that finds increased challenge entertaining is not gatekeeping.

EDIT: For context that I personally am not gatekeeping, as much as I like the challenge, IF GGG decided to make the game easier for the sake of drawing in a bigger crowed, I would be okay with that, because (A) that's their call as the game devs and (B) I would still find the game fun.

"

stalkingjackal#2441 wrote:

"

EffKayZA#1861 wrote:

"

stalkingjackal#2441 wrote:

If you are at that level where xp penalties really start to matter, then you must know how little 'progression' you achieve from the last 5 or 6 passive points.

Level 100 is only a completionist goal, there is no practical reason for doing so. It's the equivalent of equipping 4 GA items in every slot on a D4 character - there is no reason for doing so except bragging rights.

You can clear all the content in the game by level 90-95. If you can't, then getting to level 100 won't let you do that either.

If it really doesn't matter for character power/effectiveness, then let players have those last 5 or so levels.

If level 95 is the actual practical maximum then let the last 5 points be Ascendency points or something.

It's not impractical, it's just disproportionately hard for the amount of power it provides.

It's the same case for min-maxing your gear. A 90% ingenuity is around 160 divs but a 95% ingenuity is 320 divs. Does that extra 5% give you 2x character power? Absolutely not. But its there to have a little bit extra progression for people who want to go that extra mile.

I think a lot of people complaining about death penalty are actually complaining about the one shot mechanics in the game. If there weren't so many unfair ways the game kills you, then the death penalty shouldn't matter as much. Which I agree with, that the one shots should be removed or much less common.

Agreed. The conversation should be less about removing the xp penalty and more about ensuring that deaths feel like a result of player error or risk-taking, not an overly unfair system.

"

N3vangel#0037 wrote:

Agreed. The conversation should be less about removing the xp penalty and more about ensuring that deaths feel like a result of player error or risk-taking, not an overly unfair system.

True, but also the real problem in all of this is that, as great as PoE has always been, their greatest issue is they have never taught their players how to work your build out in a way that works either. Anyone who likes the game and actually plays it either looks at a guide, or actually dives into research to understand what guides do and why so they can make their own builds that can stand endgame.

What the game needs is some form of first-timer tutorial mode, or tutorials you can opt into at times, that actually tell you how their systems work (example: how defensive layers work in the game, how important resistances are, how to build your way through the passive tree). People can't learn if they're not taught or seek the material themselves.

"

stalkingjackal#2441 wrote:

D4 doesn't have xp penalty - does it lead to more player retention?

I don't think so.

XP penalty has never been an issue for PoE1, so its unlikely they will change it for PoE2.

What a shameless LIE !
There were thousands and way more threads in forum. Thousands stopped playing because of this shit.

You are just a POE 1, I like the game as it was, Fanboy. Nothing else.

The truth is: With players like you POE 1 wasn't succesfull at all.
They made a very stable basis and nothing else.

They had (especially) the last 2 opr 3 years just a couple of thousand players.
And for sure they will never come on a good amount of cash with players who already bought everything.

They made POE 2 because they could not upgrade POE 1 and furthermore they themselves told that they would love to see many more thousands are enjoying their game.

So your oppinion is worthless because they already had it in POE 1.
So what they need to take care about are the players which are new.

Not all the old fanboys. Go back to POE 1.
There you have all you need and want.
Of course no other players but as you said, more or less, you dont mind.

Good point, and I think improving their onboarding process could help sustain a steady stream of new players, which is crucial for any game's longevity. To be fair, they've made massive strides between PoE1 and PoE2, especially in making more information accessible in-game. Even just having clear, readable definitions is a big step in the right direction. They could go even further by taking inspiration from The Witcher and adding an in-game compendium with a bestiary and glossary to better educate players.

"

ClockworkShrew#7536 wrote:

Wanting to design a game that is complicated because your target audience is the one that finds increased challenge entertaining is not gatekeeping.

The problem is the death penalty removes the challenge, or more accurately prevents it.

The devs simply cannot design bosses that you are expected to die to multiple times learning the mechanics and the strategies and how to execute it all.

The can't make maps where death is ready to jump out at you behind every corner.

The challenge should be the gatekeep, not the penalty.

"

stalkingjackal#2441 wrote:

D4 doesn't have xp penalty - does it lead to more player retention?

I don't think so.

XP penalty has never been an issue for PoE1, so its unlikely they will change it for PoE2.

You can never know the extent of the players that leave over mechanics like this.

The vast majority of them, when they encounter something like this, will never voice their opinion on it online like we are here.

Many will just simply leave.


You're also making assumptions on what people feel in regards to this, and I can tell you that you're wrong.

The issue isn't one shot mechanics. It's that deaths are just punishing. To the point of being overly frustrating.

Doesn't matter if you die and it's your fault, or if it's a one shot mechanic. Or if it's the power going out, or like what happens to me all the time, my cat jumping on my desk and stepping on the keyboard.

The root of the issue is. It's a mechanic, that takes an already super long grind. And adds more time to it, as punishment for deaths.

People simply don't like their time being wasted like this, that's all it is.

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

The devs simply cannot design bosses that you are expected to die to multiple times learning the mechanics and the strategies and how to execute it all.

Mhmm, this is a good point that I've also made in other posts. It also correlates to the issue of 1-portal attempts. I think a more reasonable middle ground would be that, specifically, when you encounter a boss for the first time in maps you get an exception of the death penalty (and a certain amount of free retries).

I don't think the EXP penalty should go, but I DO think it definitely could be curved a little during the moments where the player needs to learn something new to overcome it.

"

ClockworkShrew#7536 wrote:

I don't think the EXP penalty should go, but I DO think it definitely could be curved a little during the moments where the player needs to learn something new to overcome it.

A potential middle ground would be to hold experience till the end of the map and grant it when the map is cleared. So you have to clear the map to get the XP reward.

"

ClockworkShrew#7536 wrote:

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

The devs simply cannot design bosses that you are expected to die to multiple times learning the mechanics and the strategies and how to execute it all.

Mhmm, this is a good point that I've also made in other posts. It also correlates to the issue of 1-portal attempts. I think a more reasonable middle ground would be that, specifically, when you encounter a boss for the first time in maps you get an exception of the death penalty (and a certain amount of free retries).

I don't think the EXP penalty should go, but I DO think it definitely could be curved a little during the moments where the player needs to learn something new to overcome it.

There's just better ways to implement.

WoW ran into this same issue 20 years ago. They wanted to reduce XP gains the longer you played. To encourage players to slow down and take a break.

Players didn't like it, it felt bad. You were being punished for playing.

What they did instead, was make it so that the XP gain was lower, but you could rest at an INN, or in town, and gain rested XP, which doubled your XP gains the next time you played.

Players loved the mechanic.


PoE and XP loss on death is no different. They could punish players for dying. Sure.

Or

they could reward players for staying alive longer. With like, bonus XP, or bonus loot chance.

Then it's a bonus, and not a punishment, and an opt in mechanic. And it does the same thing, which is slowing players down and having them think about their builds and playstyle.

Overall, I think the mechanic should just be axed entirely, as the whole slog to 100 already takes forever.

I'd much rather better challenges be put into the game instead, and this is entirely possible too.