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There already exist a very balanced system.
Set your character to 2 NPC groups/guilds/factions This cannot be changed nor reversed.
For those that prefer trading, let them. Loot drops shall remain default.
For those that prefer SSF, let them. Loot drops can be adjusted and increased chances based on currency crafting and/or defeat certain objective from a map. (i.e a boss, 20 skeletons, 100 zombies...etc)
Items obtained from trading cannot be used by character in SSF. Items obtained through SSF cannot be used by characters in trading.
Guess which game already have this system? "gO pLaY tHaT gAmE"
This so called "friction" when it comes to trading is a form of "pseudo friction".
It's nonsense.
Either you let trade exist freely.
Or you only allow SSF.
Alas, GGG and their cult followers refuse to accept balance. Every aspect of the game must take away your already limited free time to do meaningless trading.
Either you accept this game or you get lost. It's that simple.
It's just too bad POE has a certain charm to it that I am still fondly attracted to.
Last edited by Zesi#6787 on Dec 24, 2024, 3:16:07 PM
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Posted byZesi#6787on Dec 24, 2024, 3:09:40 PM
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I'm pretty ok with whatever they end up doing. But let me tell you I single handedly quadrupled or more the price of every single end game item on my WoW server back in the day, especially when they released the AH mobile app. I would never have been able to do that in the current PoE system. Even if I don't do something like that, many people will. To me it tracks perfectly with Jonathan's point that the rarest items will skyrocket exponentially beyond where they already are.
Just input. If they make an AH I'll appreciate aspects of it for sure, but it will definitely impact the economy in a way I doubt most will consider positive.
Maaaybe if there's a hefty enough gold cost to mitigate that. But even then, it's not like it's that hard to grind out a rather significant chunk of gold. Might be less level 10 hideout warriors, they'll just be level 90. It's not like all hideout warriors dislike playing the game.
Nope, if you are able to quadrupled your profit in a system with AH, you would make even more profit with a archaic system like POE.
I never liked WoW so I am not going to talk about WoW.
Let's talk about Warframe and GW2. For the sake of argument, I am going to use PoE currency so everyone can understand.
I am not sure whether Warframe has an auction house now or not. The last time I played was in 2019. In Warframe there was no AH. A godly riven mod (endgame item) that's probably only worth an exalted. With trade chat, I can sell it for maybe 2 mirrors. I can even, buy this similar godly riven, for an exalted from someone who doesn't know better, and sell it on trade chat at 2 mirrors. I did the same for Prime (characters that require real money and tradable in game), and never had to pay a single dollar on all MTX items.
Guild Wars 2. I can't pull the same stunt as I did in PoE/Warframe. GW2 uses gold. They have very efficient Auction house. I can still make a profit from the auction house but it require effort. It probably will take me 1 exalted and I would profit at 3 exalted.
With an AH, you have an overabundance of gears with greater varieties of modifiers. You may have, right now 10 players with a bow that has 3 T6 mods but if half of these players are not remotely interested in trading, you create scarcity and as a result, increase the prices of many items.
With an AH, you can just list the item at the lowest price and be done with it. 1 minute job, back to killing stuff.
Warframe did not add an AH because it keeps prices high. High prices = Players would lose patience = Players buy plat with real money.
Last edited by Zesi#6787 on Dec 24, 2024, 4:02:04 PM
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Posted byZesi#6787on Dec 24, 2024, 3:49:30 PM
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bowfer8660#2094 wrote:
The entire premise of Johnathans is false.
There does not *have* to be a limit on trading. There does not *have* to be inconvenience to trading.
It's just this belief that you have to get kicked in the balls everytime you find a positive thing that's so incredibly asinine by GGG.
You haven't understood the argument in any depth. To even assert that the premise is false requires a complete lack of understanding of fundamental game design. You're literally asserting that factual cause and effect (game theory) is a false premise. I can assure you you're misinformed.
If you're interested in what you're missing feel free to read on:
First you'll need to understand why we have fun playing games. They are a series of choices that can win or lose, that we (gamers) find more or less compelling to solve. We tend to focus on the ones that are not trivial that other gamers have deemed "worth our time". So POE = YES but cookie clicker = Nah.
So you can see games to be deemed fun in our hobby need choices that matter: friction, obstacles to your success. If there's no friction you end upm with a game no gamer gives a shit about. You end up with "D4 Bad"
Games get balanced around this need for "friction" or challenge and for some things to be rarer and thus more exciting to find. Skip ahead several steps and we have the "trade can't be too easy" logic.
Trade bypasses friction and forces balancing things even more rare and scares this makes the game feel terrible for people WHO WANT TO FIND COOL LOOT. But it also makes getting power "deterministic" you "earn a wage" in the game. So instead of looking for cool items you're now doing a tedious repetitive job to earn orbs.
Want cool items in the game that are hard to get but not lottery rarity? Then you don't want super easy trade. Because the easier it is to buy power in a trade the the worse the drop rates need to be. Its a spectrum:
No friction trade <----- high friction trade -----> No trade at all
Choose a balance point and then watch as everyone who doesn't share your subjective tastes is unhappy.
If you don't care about finding cool things in a videogame and just want to "work for an orb wage" and just buy everything then yes you want easy trade. Of course: You've turned a game into a job. of course you want to get it over with as quickly as possible with as little actual labor as possible.
I personally want to find cool loot and only trade occasionally or not at all. Because I like playing the game, not turning it into a shopping sim. So I want HIGHER friction trade. Diablo 2 hit about the right mark IMO.
You fail to recognize a fourth option.
Changes to the game that make it so that trading isn't necessary.
The issue is, loot is bad. Always has been. This is what forces trade. Making it higher friction isn't going to help it. We need fundemental changes to loot, that make trading unnecessary. A focus on the game being single player, rather than single player with shitty loot + trading.
The difference between this game and Diablo 2. Was that trading was seen as a bonus for some people. To perfect a build. It was in no way shape or form, required to beat content in the game, at all.
Here, it's essentially required, because the quality and quantity of the loot is abysmal, and you simply cannot progress without crafting, or trading.
For me, I want my gameplay to be gated by my skill, and maybe having to grind some bosses or enemies for a bit. Rather than having to trade or craft. I don't want the drops in my single player game, to be reduced or non-existent because the game relies on trade in anyway. Optional? Sure.
Last edited by Akedomo#3573 on Dec 24, 2024, 4:03:53 PM
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Posted byAkedomo#3573on Dec 24, 2024, 3:57:34 PM
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bowfer8660#2094 wrote:
The entire premise of Johnathans is false.
There does not *have* to be a limit on trading. There does not *have* to be inconvenience to trading.
It's just this belief that you have to get kicked in the balls everytime you find a positive thing that's so incredibly asinine by GGG.
You haven't understood the argument in any depth. To even assert that the premise is false requires a complete lack of understanding of fundamental game design. You're literally asserting that factual cause and effect (game theory) is a false premise. I can assure you you're misinformed.
If you're interested in what you're missing feel free to read on:
First you'll need to understand why we have fun playing games. They are a series of choices that can win or lose, that we (gamers) find more or less compelling to solve. We tend to focus on the ones that are not trivial that other gamers have deemed "worth our time". So POE = YES but cookie clicker = Nah.
So you can see games to be deemed fun in our hobby need choices that matter: friction, obstacles to your success. If there's no friction you end upm with a game no gamer gives a shit about. You end up with "D4 Bad"
Games get balanced around this need for "friction" or challenge and for some things to be rarer and thus more exciting to find. Skip ahead several steps and we have the "trade can't be too easy" logic.
Trade bypasses friction and forces balancing things even more rare and scares this makes the game feel terrible for people WHO WANT TO FIND COOL LOOT. But it also makes getting power "deterministic" you "earn a wage" in the game. So instead of looking for cool items you're now doing a tedious repetitive job to earn orbs.
Want cool items in the game that are hard to get but not lottery rarity? Then you don't want super easy trade. Because the easier it is to buy power in a trade the the worse the drop rates need to be. Its a spectrum:
No friction trade <----- high friction trade -----> No trade at all
Choose a balance point and then watch as everyone who doesn't share your subjective tastes is unhappy.
If you don't care about finding cool things in a videogame and just want to "work for an orb wage" and just buy everything then yes you want easy trade. Of course: You've turned a game into a job. of course you want to get it over with as quickly as possible with as little actual labor as possible.
I personally want to find cool loot and only trade occasionally or not at all. Because I like playing the game, not turning it into a shopping sim. So I want HIGHER friction trade. Diablo 2 hit about the right mark IMO.
I played Marvel Heroes for over 10,000 hours over <4 years.
PoE? 1,762.5 in roughly the same amount of time.
Guess which game didn't have high-friction trade or any crafting to speak of?
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Posted byXenus_Paradox#7530on Dec 24, 2024, 4:02:28 PM
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I played Marvel Heroes for over 10,000 hours over <4 years.
PoE? 1,762.5 in roughly the same amount of time.
Guess which game didn't have high-friction trade or any crafting to speak of?
More gameplay, less stupidity. How a game should be.
Who wants to stand around spamming orbs on an item, or search a website for an item, when you could just be out killing more bosses?
Bout 90% of the people interested in ARPG's. But then there's the veteran PoE 1 players that keep asking for crafting and complaining about *MUH ECONOMY* instead of better loot. Lol
Last edited by Akedomo#3573 on Dec 24, 2024, 4:06:54 PM
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Posted byAkedomo#3573on Dec 24, 2024, 4:06:03 PM
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There already exist a very balanced system.
Set your character to 2 NPC groups/guilds/ factions This cannot be changed nor reversed.
For those that prefer trading, let them. Loot drops shall remain default.
For those that prefer SSF, let them. Loot drops can be adjusted and increased chances based on currency crafting and/or defeat certain objective from a map. (i.e a boss, 20 skeletons, 100 zombies...etc)
Items obtained from trading cannot be used by character in SSF. Items obtained through SSF cannot be used by characters in trading.
Guess which game already have this system? "gO pLaY tHaT gAmE"
This so called "friction" when it comes to trading is a form of "pseudo friction".
It's nonsense.
Either you let trade exist freely.
Or you only allow SSF.
Alas, GGG and their cult followers refuse to accept balance. Every aspect of the game must take away your already limited free time to do meaningless trading.
Either you accept this game or you get lost. It's that simple.
It's just too bad POE has a certain charm to it that I am still fondly attracted to.
Yes, LE had it right. That's why the game is so popular, all these great design choices they made to reduce friction for the players. That's why Last Epoch is swimming in it's.... 1.7k concurrent players to POE2's tiny 297k.
Wait a minute...
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Posted byValsacar#0268on Dec 24, 2024, 4:06:33 PM
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There already exist a very balanced system.
Set your character to 2 NPC groups/guilds/ factions This cannot be changed nor reversed.
For those that prefer trading, let them. Loot drops shall remain default.
For those that prefer SSF, let them. Loot drops can be adjusted and increased chances based on currency crafting and/or defeat certain objective from a map. (i.e a boss, 20 skeletons, 100 zombies...etc)
Items obtained from trading cannot be used by character in SSF. Items obtained through SSF cannot be used by characters in trading.
Guess which game already have this system? "gO pLaY tHaT gAmE"
This so called "friction" when it comes to trading is a form of "pseudo friction".
It's nonsense.
Either you let trade exist freely.
Or you only allow SSF.
Alas, GGG and their cult followers refuse to accept balance. Every aspect of the game must take away your already limited free time to do meaningless trading.
Either you accept this game or you get lost. It's that simple.
It's just too bad POE has a certain charm to it that I am still fondly attracted to.
Yes, LE had it right. That's why the game is so popular, all these great design choices they made to reduce friction for the players. That's why Last Epoch is swimming in it's.... 1.7k concurrent players to POE2's tiny 297k.
Wait a minute...
A game could have something right in one area, and wrong in another or even failing entirely, and still be used as an example as an upgrade to another game.
Do you regularly live life with a binary, black and white mindset? That must be exhausting.
Game = low player = Every mechanic/system in it is bad! Amazing logic.
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bowfer8660#2094 wrote:
Yeah yeah, the stupid trade manifesto is why I have not bought a supporter pack in 14 years. Nothing but stupidity, and serendipitously fumbling their way into success. I often think it would have been better if Kripp let this game die in the first few leagues rather than telling them how to succeed. Maybe they would take the hint and notice that Kripp eventually went full SSF and ruthless.
This is the main reason I haven't played this game more, or bought more from the store, or any supporter packs. I play till I'm forced to interact with the trade/crafting system, and I quit.
Almost every single one of my friends has tried this game, and then quit over the same reason. Hit 80, basically forced to redo your build every time, and then you spend hours trading, or crafting. Just to force an economy in the game, and interactions.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3663256/page/1#p25736717
Last edited by Akedomo#3573 on Dec 24, 2024, 4:14:54 PM
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Posted byAkedomo#3573on Dec 24, 2024, 4:08:49 PM
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There already exist a very balanced system.
Set your character to 2 NPC groups/guilds/ factions This cannot be changed nor reversed.
For those that prefer trading, let them. Loot drops shall remain default.
For those that prefer SSF, let them. Loot drops can be adjusted and increased chances based on currency crafting and/or defeat certain objective from a map. (i.e a boss, 20 skeletons, 100 zombies...etc)
Items obtained from trading cannot be used by character in SSF. Items obtained through SSF cannot be used by characters in trading.
Guess which game already have this system? "gO pLaY tHaT gAmE"
This so called "friction" when it comes to trading is a form of "pseudo friction".
It's nonsense.
Either you let trade exist freely.
Or you only allow SSF.
Alas, GGG and their cult followers refuse to accept balance. Every aspect of the game must take away your already limited free time to do meaningless trading.
Either you accept this game or you get lost. It's that simple.
It's just too bad POE has a certain charm to it that I am still fondly attracted to.
Yes, LE had it right. That's why the game is so popular, all these great design choices they made to reduce friction for the players. That's why Last Epoch is swimming in it's.... 1.7k concurrent players to POE2's tiny 297k.
Wait a minute...
Counter-Strike 2 has more than 4 times as many players as PoE 2 and there's no trading or crafting at all in that game. 🤔
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Posted byXenus_Paradox#7530on Dec 24, 2024, 4:20:55 PM
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There already exist a very balanced system.
Set your character to 2 NPC groups/guilds/ factions This cannot be changed nor reversed.
For those that prefer trading, let them. Loot drops shall remain default.
For those that prefer SSF, let them. Loot drops can be adjusted and increased chances based on currency crafting and/or defeat certain objective from a map. (i.e a boss, 20 skeletons, 100 zombies...etc)
Items obtained from trading cannot be used by character in SSF. Items obtained through SSF cannot be used by characters in trading.
Guess which game already have this system? "gO pLaY tHaT gAmE"
This so called "friction" when it comes to trading is a form of "pseudo friction".
It's nonsense.
Either you let trade exist freely.
Or you only allow SSF.
Alas, GGG and their cult followers refuse to accept balance. Every aspect of the game must take away your already limited free time to do meaningless trading.
Either you accept this game or you get lost. It's that simple.
It's just too bad POE has a certain charm to it that I am still fondly attracted to.
Yes, LE had it right. That's why the game is so popular, all these great design choices they made to reduce friction for the players. That's why Last Epoch is swimming in it's.... 1.7k concurrent players to POE2's tiny 297k.
Wait a minute...
It's because the Monolith system of LE is very bad compared to the PoE Atlas. That's the cold hard truth.
Delve, Heist, Atlas...etc are what made me stay playing PoE.
It doesn't mean the faction system is bad. SSF char cannot use items that's traded. Trading char cannot use SSF dropped items. It's a very balanced system. Play the side you prefer. I fail to see how is such a system not an improvement from what POE have.
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Posted byZesi#6787on Dec 24, 2024, 4:21:45 PM
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first : ggg loves trading for whatever reason.
the easier trading is, the more items gets listed.
so then you can have no friction almost no limit, and hyper low drop rates aka D3 at start. felt very bad at least imo.
limit to the amount of trading like undecember. but i undestand that some people are ready to put up with the friction to do the trading because they like it.
heavy friction poe like. so you can have heavy trading but it s painful in the ass
also people going to others hideout can trigger mtx purchase i ve vaguely heard.
so maybe one day they change their idea but it s been years some people have asked for ssf buff to drops and it never happened.
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Posted bySerialF#4835on Dec 24, 2024, 4:21:52 PM
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