https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RskRFwgoQ5g
for the question about trade and instant buy-out
its confirmed, and the interview was in february 2024
here is a time stamped one https://youtu.be/RskRFwgoQ5g?t=6838
Just how few people have actually watched the video ???
how many of the people commenting in here noticed the date of the interview?
Last edited by Battle_Baboon#3734 on Dec 25, 2024, 4:15:05 PM Last bumped on Dec 25, 2024, 4:30:08 PM
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Posted byBattle_Baboon#3734on Dec 24, 2024, 7:45:48 AM
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bowfer8660#2094 wrote:
The entire premise of Johnathans is false.
There does not *have* to be a limit on trading. There does not *have* to be inconvenience to trading.
It's just this belief that you have to get kicked in the balls everytime you find a positive thing that's so incredibly asinine by GGG.
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Posted bysonik11#6442on Dec 24, 2024, 8:20:20 AM
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Yea I've read the trade manifesto, the thing is, the main premise of the trade manifesto is false, trading absolutely does not make my items valuable, wanting to play with them does. Once you reject that, everything else that follows from their initial idea just doesn't matter.
In fact a lot of their other ideas are just wrong too. Does trade lead to getting less upgrades to your character? Yes! However the more friction you put on trade but insist on keeping it around, the less upgrades your character is going to get, because you want to save up and execute one big trade where you gear your character out then stop. As opposed to many little trades.
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Posted byj33bus#3399on Dec 24, 2024, 8:24:23 AM
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Yea I've read the trade manifesto, the thing is, the main premise of the trade manifesto is false, trading absolutely does not make my items valuable, wanting to play with them does. Once you reject that, everything else that follows from their initial idea just doesn't matter.
In fact a lot of their other ideas are just wrong too. Does trade lead to getting less upgrades to your character? Yes! However the more friction you put on trade but insist on keeping it around, the less upgrades your character is going to get, because you want to save up and execute one big trade where you gear your character out then stop. As opposed to many little trades.
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Posted byj33bus#3399on Dec 24, 2024, 8:24:23 AM
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bowfer8660#2094 wrote:
The entire premise of Johnathans is false.
There does not *have* to be a limit on trading. There does not *have* to be inconvenience to trading.
It's just this belief that you have to get kicked in the balls everytime you find a positive thing that's so incredibly asinine by GGG.
You haven't understood the argument in any depth. To even assert that the premise is false requires a complete lack of understanding of fundamental game design. You're literally asserting that factual cause and effect (game theory) is a false premise. I can assure you you're misinformed.
If you're interested in what you're missing feel free to read on:
First you'll need to understand why we have fun playing games. They are a series of choices that can win or lose, that we (gamers) find more or less compelling to solve. We tend to focus on the ones that are not trivial that other gamers have deemed "worth our time". So POE = YES but cookie clicker = Nah.
So you can see games to be deemed fun in our hobby need choices that matter: friction, obstacles to your success. If there's no friction you end upm with a game no gamer gives a shit about. You end up with "D4 Bad"
Games get balanced around this need for "friction" or challenge and for some things to be rarer and thus more exciting to find. Skip ahead several steps and we have the "trade can't be too easy" logic.
Trade bypasses friction and forces balancing things even more rare and scares this makes the game feel terrible for people WHO WANT TO FIND COOL LOOT. But it also makes getting power "deterministic" you "earn a wage" in the game. So instead of looking for cool items you're now doing a tedious repetitive job to earn orbs.
Want cool items in the game that are hard to get but not lottery rarity? Then you don't want super easy trade. Because the easier it is to buy power in a trade the the worse the drop rates need to be. Its a spectrum:
No friction trade <----- high friction trade -----> No trade at all
Choose a balance point and then watch as everyone who doesn't share your subjective tastes is unhappy.
If you don't care about finding cool things in a videogame and just want to "work for an orb wage" and just buy everything then yes you want easy trade. Of course: You've turned a game into a job. of course you want to get it over with as quickly as possible with as little actual labor as possible.
I personally want to find cool loot and only trade occasionally or not at all. Because I like playing the game, not turning it into a shopping sim. So I want HIGHER friction trade. Diablo 2 hit about the right mark IMO.
Pandering to players who don't want consequences for their mistakes is a perfect description of what went fundamentally wrong with D3 and 4.
If they wanted mindless mobile game time waster gameplay they sure did make some perplexing choices and marketing statements for 6 fucking years. Last edited by alhazred70#2994 on Dec 24, 2024, 9:28:43 AM
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Posted byalhazred70#2994on Dec 24, 2024, 9:21:38 AM
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bowfer8660#2094 wrote:
The entire premise of Johnathans is false.
There does not *have* to be a limit on trading. There does not *have* to be inconvenience to trading.
It's just this belief that you have to get kicked in the balls everytime you find a positive thing that's so incredibly asinine by GGG.
You haven't understood the argument in any depth. To even assert that the premise is false requires a complete lack of understanding of fundamental game design. You're literally asserting that factual cause and effect (game theory) is a false premise. I can assure you you're misinformed.
If you're interested in what you're missing feel free to read on:
First you'll need to understand why we have fun playing games. They are a series of choices that can win or lose, that we (gamers) find more or less compelling to solve. We tend to focus on the ones that are not trivial that other gamers have deemed "worth our time". So POE = YES but cookie clicker = Nah.
So you can see games to be deemed fun in our hobby need choices that matter: friction, obstacles to your success. If there's no friction you end upm with a game no gamer gives a shit about. You end up with "D4 Bad"
Games get balanced around this need for "friction" or challenge and for some things to be rarer and thus more exciting to find. Skip ahead several steps and we have the "trade can't be too easy" logic.
Trade bypasses friction and forces balancing things even more rare and scares this makes the game feel terrible for people WHO WANT TO FIND COOL LOOT. But it also makes getting power "deterministic" you "earn a wage" in the game. So instead of looking for cool items you're now doing a tedious repetitive job to earn orbs.
Want cool items in the game that are hard to get but not lottery rarity? Then you don't want super easy trade. Because the easier it is to buy power in a trade the the worse the drop rates need to be. Its a spectrum:
No friction trade <----- high friction trade -----> No trade at all
Choose a balance point and then watch as everyone who doesn't share your subjective tastes is unhappy.
If you don't care about finding cool things in a videogame and just want to "work for an orb wage" and just buy everything then yes you want easy trade. Of course: You've turned a game into a job. of course you want to get it over with as quickly as possible with as little actual labor as possible.
I personally want to find cool loot and only trade occasionally or not at all. Because I like playing the game, not turning it into a shopping sim. So I want HIGHER friction trade. Diablo 2 hit about the right mark IMO.
👏
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Posted bygotcha8itch#2885on Dec 24, 2024, 9:33:05 AM
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bowfer8660#2094 wrote:
The entire premise of Johnathans is false.
There does not *have* to be a limit on trading. There does not *have* to be inconvenience to trading.
It's just this belief that you have to get kicked in the balls everytime you find a positive thing that's so incredibly asinine by GGG.
You haven't understood the argument in any depth. To even assert that the premise is false requires a complete lack of understanding of fundamental game design. You're literally asserting that factual cause and effect (game theory) is a false premise. I can assure you you're misinformed.
If you're interested in what you're missing feel free to read on:
First you'll need to understand why we have fun playing games. They are a series of choices that can win or lose, that we (gamers) find more or less compelling to solve. We tend to focus on the ones that are not trivial that other gamers have deemed "worth our time". So POE = YES but cookie clicker = Nah.
So you can see games to be deemed fun in our hobby need choices that matter: friction, obstacles to your success. If there's no friction you end upm with a game no gamer gives a shit about. You end up with "D4 Bad"
Games get balanced around this need for "friction" or challenge and for some things to be rarer and thus more exciting to find. Skip ahead several steps and we have the "trade can't be too easy" logic.
Trade bypasses friction and forces balancing things even more rare and scares this makes the game feel terrible for people WHO WANT TO FIND COOL LOOT. But it also makes getting power "deterministic" you "earn a wage" in the game. So instead of looking for cool items you're now doing a tedious repetitive job to earn orbs.
Want cool items in the game that are hard to get but not lottery rarity? Then you don't want super easy trade. Because the easier it is to buy power in a trade the the worse the drop rates need to be. Its a spectrum:
No friction trade <----- high friction trade -----> No trade at all
Choose a balance point and then watch as everyone who doesn't share your subjective tastes is unhappy.
If you don't care about finding cool things in a videogame and just want to "work for an orb wage" and just buy everything then yes you want easy trade. Of course: You've turned a game into a job. of course you want to get it over with as quickly as possible with as little actual labor as possible.
I personally want to find cool loot and only trade occasionally or not at all. Because I like playing the game, not turning it into a shopping sim. So I want HIGHER friction trade. Diablo 2 hit about the right mark IMO.
Couldn't have worded it better. Let's face it, diablo-like ARPGs are all about generating dopamine from finding cool stuff. Orbs, coins, and vendor food junk is not cool stuff, they're boring stuff, they generate nothing but insane amounts of boringness, and i hate that PoE2 is actively moving in that direction.
Last edited by LaiTash#6276 on Dec 24, 2024, 9:39:47 AM
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Posted byLaiTash#6276on Dec 24, 2024, 9:39:23 AM
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In the interview Johnathan talks about moving with the with times. Yet here we are using a website outside the game for trading. Give us in game options to trade. That's moving with the times.
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Posted byYoshukai-#7220on Dec 24, 2024, 9:52:33 AM
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bowfer8660#2094 wrote:
The entire premise of Johnathans is false.
There does not *have* to be a limit on trading. There does not *have* to be inconvenience to trading.
It's just this belief that you have to get kicked in the balls everytime you find a positive thing that's so incredibly asinine by GGG.
You haven't understood the argument in any depth. To even assert that the premise is false requires a complete lack of understanding of fundamental game design. You're literally asserting that factual cause and effect (game theory) is a false premise. I can assure you you're misinformed.
If you're interested in what you're missing feel free to read on:
First you'll need to understand why we have fun playing games. They are a series of choices that can win or lose, that we (gamers) find more or less compelling to solve. We tend to focus on the ones that are not trivial that other gamers have deemed "worth our time". So POE = YES but cookie clicker = Nah.
So you can see games to be deemed fun in our hobby need choices that matter: friction, obstacles to your success. If there's no friction you end upm with a game no gamer gives a shit about. You end up with "D4 Bad"
Games get balanced around this need for "friction" or challenge and for some things to be rarer and thus more exciting to find. Skip ahead several steps and we have the "trade can't be too easy" logic.
Trade bypasses friction and forces balancing things even more rare and scares this makes the game feel terrible for people WHO WANT TO FIND COOL LOOT. But it also makes getting power "deterministic" you "earn a wage" in the game. So instead of looking for cool items you're now doing a tedious repetitive job to earn orbs.
Want cool items in the game that are hard to get but not lottery rarity? Then you don't want super easy trade. Because the easier it is to buy power in a trade the the worse the drop rates need to be. Its a spectrum:
No friction trade <----- high friction trade -----> No trade at all
Choose a balance point and then watch as everyone who doesn't share your subjective tastes is unhappy.
If you don't care about finding cool things in a videogame and just want to "work for an orb wage" and just buy everything then yes you want easy trade. Of course: You've turned a game into a job. of course you want to get it over with as quickly as possible with as little actual labor as possible.
I personally want to find cool loot and only trade occasionally or not at all. Because I like playing the game, not turning it into a shopping sim. So I want HIGHER friction trade. Diablo 2 hit about the right mark IMO.
That’s all great, except for the fact that earning an orb wage is exactly what we have right now. So you’re either fixing that by not creating a shit tier trade experience to use your orbs or fixing the other side of the equation and making it reasonable to play without trade. Pretending that poe1 and 2 are not designed about earning orb wages is a deep and staggering level of denial and self delusion
Last edited by maquino85#7657 on Dec 24, 2024, 10:12:17 AM
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Posted bymaquino85#7657on Dec 24, 2024, 10:11:53 AM
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I understand the arguements that some others are making but I don't agree with the conclusions that they are coming to.
To me, if you allow a mostly unlimited but high friction trading system similar to what we have now, it's an annoyance to the players that will put up with the friction, it's an annoyance to the sellers, and it's a BARRIER to those players that just want to progress but don't want to put up with needless hassle.
To me the above is a lose, lose, lose situation. I think even the people that want to find their own stuff lose because the game is ALREADY balanced around unlimited trading -- adding in friction just adds "net losses" to the overall picture.
To me, from an economic perspective, adding friction to a market does two things .. it makes both buyers and sellers not want to engage as much. This along with human nature tends to lead to market distortions that are less efficient for everyone.
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Posted byKingAlamar#4071on Dec 24, 2024, 10:32:01 AM
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