Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Meanwhile, you dismiss all the feedbacks, opinions, and facts from people telling you that loss of map/loss of xp on death are core part of the game, both intentionnal and great game design creating both meaning and challenge for both regular mapping and higher bossing, and you guys keep plaguing the net and dooming the game's future because you are just upset to be punished away from the elite circle you WANT to belong to but you CAN'T access due to a lack of gear/skill/knowledge/patience.

It's not feedback, it's entitled whining. You just want the game to be made easier, because you can't hack it. You FEEL like you DESERVE to reach the end of the endgame. Well, that's not how it works. Clearing the campaign and reaching 70 is great enough, that's already the end of the game for most people whom had fun clearing it. You want more ? It exist, but good luck reaching it. You can't do it ? You know what they said : git gud.

I think you are doing a lot more entitled whining than anyone else here. OP was directing feedback at the devs, not you. Several responses with opinions supporting xp penalty are not facts, they are also feedback and opinions. Many responses are not in favor of it as well. If supporting opinions are not compelling enough to change someone's mind? Then yes, they are dismissed. That is how debate works.

Nah, because I accept reality and actually enjoy it. You don't.

Case dismissed.

Merry Christmas.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

You just want the game to be made easier, because you can't hack it.

Death penalties do not make a game harder. They only make it more tedious.

The challenge is what makes the game hard. Overcoming the challenge makes it fulfilling.

Punishment has nothing to do with that. In fact, it means they have to lower the challenge or the punishments would be too harsh and too frequent.

We want a challenging, difficult game. Not a punishing, time-wasting one.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Nah, because I accept reality and actually enjoy it. You don't.

Case dismissed.

Merry Christmas.

uh huh

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Meanwhile, you dismiss all the feedbacks, opinions, and facts from people telling you that loss of map/loss of xp on death are core part of the game, both intentionnal and great game design creating both meaning and challenge for both regular mapping and higher bossing, and you guys keep plaguing the net and dooming the game's future because you are just upset to be punished away from the elite circle you WANT to belong to but you CAN'T access due to a lack of gear/skill/knowledge/patience.

It's not feedback, it's entitled whining. You just want the game to be made easier, because you can't hack it. You FEEL like you DESERVE to reach the end of the endgame. Well, that's not how it works. Clearing the campaign and reaching 70 is great enough, that's already the end of the game for most people whom had fun clearing it. You want more ? It exist, but good luck reaching it. You can't do it ? You know what they said : git gud.

That's one of the points I said at the beginning :-D Just because you play a build that basically clears everything everywhere in every map doesn't make you the king.

For that matter I can copy an stupid no brainer build and do the same and reach lv 100 like friends did many times in PoE 1. In fact they got bored by such build so they often stopped between 92 and 99. ON the other hand they quit because it's virtually impossible to get creative with own ideas because your progress is stopped or at least heavily slowed due to the EXP penalty.

If you are such a player, I can totally understand the comment. People like you wouldn't feel a single negative thing by removing the EXP Penalty... You are just scared that your way to play is not the only valid anymore.

You either play totally outgeared in lower missions until you "farmed" your gear or you play builds that are mostly copied and not self engineered. It's fine... I have nothing against it while I don't like it. But posing in the forum as king and telling others to leave because they would like a single thing be changed, is just over the top arrogant.

By now I clear tier 7 maps with ease... Even rare enemies stacked with buffs are usually dying 1 hit with a Melee Boneshatter build.

I still can't run higher maps because the potential EXP loss doesn't allow me to take this challenge so I am stuck... what now? I just had level up... I can try it. And then? I beat it... I stick with Tier 7 and in 1 or 2 out of 10 maps I die for what ever reason. Cycle starts over again.

There is basically not a single downside for the game or the economy or any other aspect. You guys are defending it because you feel king because you reach something on one of two lame ways that can be done by anyone... but not everyone want's to stick with outgeared content or play meta builds. Can't you get it? You can keep playing the exact same way you are doing right now. Only difference is that other player can play differently. Some player like to do more than just walk, press button, all dead... continue... walk, press button, all dead... I play a melee build, I want a reason to carry the shield. I love the shield raise mechanic and the dodge roll. I want to use it and have fun with it.

Following what you say you are allowed to have "fun" - what ever this looks like for you. But others can't suggest things to have fun also... I am currently looking for a word for it but I better shut it at this point.

Not a single one here could deliver a solid reason that I couldn't counter.

Another reason for EXP Loss Removal would be party play...
- Can't get revived, can't use another portal to go back in

A friend started a map for the hideout and put in a freaking scary rare T8 map by accident and asked for help. So I joined and helped him knowing I would likely die but I wanted this hideout as well.

I did not die because of my skill, my knowledge, my patience... I died because the game is heavily overloaded with effects. As a melee I am in CCQ and he's playing a Minion Build. So he's not close to me and the minions doesn't block players. (players block players btw)

The reason I died were his stupid minions. About 20-25 Skeletons swarmed the huge freaking pack of monsters. While using the HP Bar on top on my head, I still couldn't see a thing. I couldn't see where to charge, where to jump, where to roll. I saw no ground effects, no explosions... nothing. I had like 0.5 seconds to think so I just reacted and tried to get out of the zerk of minions but died while hammering my instand potion. It was fine for me... I expected to die and was ready for it. Just not for such a stupid reason.

The game is not designed for it but people are forced into party play for more loot. So the game is punishing me 5 times. EXP Loss, Map loss, Atlas Mod lost, orbs for map crafting lost and last but not least the possibility to play with friends is lost from the start on out.

I would even be willing to meet you half way: EXP loss remains for boss maps for example. Something I can stack up and attempt one by one in a nice boss killing evening after a level up to lower the potential EXP loss.

I'd call this a compromise I don't like but boss these maps - because they are bosses, can be done on Magic maps without too much mods. Maybe even on 1 or 2 levels below the skill average.

But people wouldn't agree to this as well because your reason is not "good mechanic for myself" but rather "bad mechanic for others" so you can joke about them because they would play a different approach giving the chance.

Edit:
I forgot the most important stuff:

After level Up I could attempt every map in every difficulty as often as I have this map without a single EXP loss in the process... Depending I haven't finished one and die in the next.

So your beloved EXP loss system can already be circumvented and people can smash their heads against invisible walls of difficulty.

Following your chain of logic a Down-Level mechanic should be implemented to prevent them cheating and attempting maps they are not allowed too because they are not skilled enough to win.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

2) The player does not get the message and keeps dying repeatedly without improving his character or adapting the difficulty.
Here the XP penalty is needed in order to amplify the message the player is clearly not understanding. The message being: Improve your character or lower the difficulty.

Why is this message "needed"? What great harm is being caused by the player continuing to die repeatedly. Maybe they're having fun and want to overcome the challenge with the character they have?

OMG, we can't have that! Players playing the way they want, that would be madness!

So repeatedly dying and not progressing is fun? Ok, then do it. Nobody is stopping you. Just don't complain about the logical outcome. The game is trying to tell you that you won't progress this way.

Once again you are misusing the word challenge. The mapping endgame loop is no challenge. It is farming currency. Why do you keep trying to change the game into another type of game? Go play the other type of game if you so clearly want to.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Once again. I think you are just not understanding what type of game this is. Improving your build/character is the main activity. Everything evolves around this. Maps are here for farming. Not for challenges. A map is something you open to mindlessly farm currency/equipment for your build. If you want a challenge you attempt a pinnacle boss.

Absolutely nobody says: I want a challenge. Lets open a map.

If you die in 1 out of 4 maps, you most definitely are doing something wrong. I would expect to maybe die once in a 100 maps. Or maybe even less.

If you only die 1 in 100 maps then maps suck and need a serious overhaul. Maybe replace them with a giant pachinko machine that spits out rewards. That would at least be engaging.

No absolutely not. Maps and XP penalty are fine. You are just playing the wrong game. And you keep refusing to see this. You try to change a game, that simply does not work as you want it to. Stop it. Go play something else that is designed the way you want it to be.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

If someone keeps bashing their head against a wall and keep failing it is not on me or the game. It is simply on them. And apparently the penalty not being hard enough for them to understand that this should not be happening. That they should do something else.

Are you even playing PoE 2 or just rambling about nothing of substance?

The only lvl 100 character you have is an RF build. Your second highest character is a lvl 99 Necro with Minions. In fact, your most played build is Minions. Most of your other characters are below lvl 96.

Apparently, you are such a god gamer that you mainly play Minions, the easiest playstyle there is. Even in PoE 2, I was much, much faster leveling a Warrior with (nerfed) Popcorn SRS + Arsonists than any other method, without any Minion passives.

Get off your high horse and pick a better base to stand on. A Minion player talking shit to other people about death penalty is quite something, really.

I do understand that this is a very long thread already and you did not read every post. I would not have either. In one of the post I explicitly stated that I am a bad player. That is one of the reasons why I like PoE so much. Because in this type of game one can overcome their own shortcomings by simply out gearing the content or by using an OP build. Everyone, a pro god gamer and a complete noob can accomplish the same things in PoE. And that is great. A noob like me just needs more time for it and a different approach. But it is possible.

Your "argument" is simply BS.

And even though I already explained it in another post, there is no high horse. I do not want to and also cannot gatekeep anyone out of anything. And why would I? Players are doing this themself and falsely blaming the game for it.

That is the part I am arguing against. If someone hits a wall and cannot progress, there is very simple solution for this. Improve your character. That's all.

But that is just not what people want to hear. People just want to jump to the end without progression. When the game tells them "Hey look, your character is not yet strong enough for that difficulty." they simply want to ignore this and bash their head against the wall. And when the logical outcome, not progressing, occurs they cry in the forum for making their own bad decision and trying to change the game into another type of game.

Games like this already exists and they are boring AF. PoE 1 and 2 are very popular and both have this penalty. Why did it work for PoE 1 so well? If it was that bad nobody should be playing it anymore, right?

That's the game. Take it or leave it. Just stop crying.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

I don't think you understand what "hitting a wall" means. There's no improvement to be made, as progress is locked, and said progress would be required to overcome that wall.

But, I'll just point towards your own admission.

You simply choose not wanting to understand.

Never is there any situation where you absolutely cannot progress. There is absolutely always a map difficulty or area where you can farm currency or potential upgrades. If you do not do this, then it is your decision not to try to improve your character. There is always a step back in difficulty. If you keep dying in T10 you can try T9. If you still die you can try T8 ... and so on. You simply do not want to and therefor decide not to try to improve your character. Even if you die in T1 you can go back to Act 3 cruel.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

Are you actually trying to make the argument that the EXP death penalty is a defining feature of PoE? :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

It sucked then, it sucks now. It's not necessary at all and achieves the exact opposite. Players do not like having their time wasted. Otherwise people wouldn't be whining about the huge maps of PoE 2.

I am not saying that is one of the core reasons why PoE 1 is successful. I am making the argument that if XP penalty was really as bad as people try to say here, then PoE 1 should not have been as successful, correct? Because why would a game with such a bad bad system be successful?

You guys just want rewards for free, without putting in any work. And changes that lead to that will ruin the game. Like many games before.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

So repeatedly dying and not progressing is fun? Ok, then do it. Nobody is stopping you. Just don't complain about the logical outcome. The game is trying to tell you that you won't progress this way.

The logical consequence is I keep dying and don't progress until I win. Losing XP and moving backwards is not.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Once again you are misusing the word challenge. The mapping endgame loop is no challenge. It is farming currency. Why do you keep trying to change the game into another type of game? Go play the other type of game if you so clearly want to.

Nobody knows what type of game this is yet. It's been out in Early Access for a few weeks. I could turn that around and say it sounds like you would be happier playing Path of Exile - Good news! That game still exists for you.

And if the mapping is really that easy, that's another thing that needs to be looked at. You can farm currency in a challenging environment. Except that they CAN'T make it challenging because of the death penalties. Without the penalty, every map could be a challenge.

That's how the penalties hurt the game.
They have to make the main loop of the game easier because of them.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

No absolutely not. Maps and XP penalty are fine. You are just playing the wrong game. And you keep refusing to see this. You try to change a game, that simply does not work as you want it to. Stop it. Go play something else that is designed the way you want it to be.

Or, I can play this game, and point out the design flaws in it, and help it become a better game. You know, the whole point of Early Access: getting player feedback.

Most people playing this game will have never played Path of Exile and so don't have the baggage of thinking things should be done the way they always have been done. Keeping a feature simply because that's the way it was in a different game isn't a very good reason.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

That is the part I am arguing against. If someone hits a wall and cannot progress, there is very simple solution for this. Improve your character. That's all.

That's true. An XP penalty does NOTHING to help with that. You can't progress until you can clear the content. No need for punishment to force them to lose time simply to get back to where they were.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

But that is just not what people want to hear. People just want to jump to the end without progression. When the game tells them "Hey look, your character is not yet strong enough for that difficulty." they simply want to ignore this and bash their head against the wall. And when the logical outcome, not progressing, occurs they cry in the forum for making their own bad decision and trying to change the game into another type of game.

Removing the XP penalty isn't going to help people progress. The only thing that makes that happen is clearing the content. For some reason the thought of that seems to scare you, or at least you think it's a Bad Thing(tm) for people to progress that haven't been sufficiently punished along the way.

PoE 2 is very popular because it is new and more accessible than Path of Exile. Death penalties are a holdover from a bygone era that need to be left in the past. They serve no purpose in a game that naturally limits progression simply by the challenges that must be overcome.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

You guys just want rewards for free, without putting in any work. And changes that lead to that will ruin the game. Like many games before.

You keep saying this, as if beating the content is "free" and requires no work. The challenge is still there, and still must be overcome.

Path of Exile was successful in spite of it's flaws. And if they want PoE 2 to have the numbers it can, some of those flaws need to be addressed, or they'll go back to PoE 1 numbers.

I mean I was playing Elden Ring and I couldn't get past a boss, they should just remove it and refund me the souls I lost along the way. There shouldn't be hard mobs killing me on the way back to the boss I'm already beating my head against the wall as is. It's not fun to me, and I'm entitled to experience everything even if I'm not the target audience, so change it.

I also love baseball, so I went to Fenway Park and explained to them that just because I have no eye-hand coordination, can't swing a bat, can't run, can't throw, that I deserve to be on that team. I, ME, am owed the opportunity to experience what other players do. I'm going to my local congressman and you will see me leading off next opening day.


What you silly geese don't seem to understand, is just because someone is lacking the skills to something, and unwilling to put in the effort to improve or learn about something, shouldn't exclude them from anything in life. Because I, me, and myself should not be wantonly discriminated against via the use of common sense practices. I mean it is just about 2025 after all.