Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Never is there any situation where you absolutely cannot progress. There is absolutely always a map difficulty or area where you can farm currency or potential upgrades. If you do not do this, then it is your decision not to try to improve your character. There is always a step back in difficulty. If you keep dying in T10 you can try T9. If you still die you can try T8 ... and so on. You simply do not want to and therefor decide not to try to improve your character. Even if you die in T1 you can go back to Act 3 cruel.

This is simply wrong. From what I learned the general drop chance of stuff in maps tier 1-9 is slim to not existing. I found a single pair of boots with 5 great rolls on them. I put an exalted on it and got 30% movement speed. Perfect boots for my class, Armor, Life, 2 Resis, Movement speed and armor in %. I doubt that I will find something better anytime soon as all the rolls are Tier 5 and up. The rest of my items - while on lower level, have great rolls between Tier 2 and Tier 6 already. I found at least 12 Expert Maces yesterday and wanted to craft a new one and every attempt failed. So tell me how many years am I supposed to grind low level shit in the hopes to find a item that boosts me to be able to - yet again - safely run the next tier? I don't want it safe. I want it fun. And fun for me is to use the mechanics that my actually class is offering me. Melee class in CQC with raise shield, block, Dodge roll. I simply can not do this. Why add it if there is no reason to use it because I can't play in an area where it makes sense to raise the shield? Raising it in the right second to block a heavy (blockable) attack from the boss just to dodge roll behind him to stun and deal burst damage is such a satisfying mechanic. It's fun, it's engaging it requires to coordinate and use multiple skills and buttons and works AWESOME with my Controller - yes, playing with a Controller is sooo awesome.

So running low maps doesn't serve a purpose other than keeping you busy for longer so you spend more time paying real money for vanity or what?

I am not sure if GGG finances itself like a Mobile Game with whales who cash 5 digit amounts of money or tons of tons of player who pay little amount of money every now and then. I suppose it's the 2nd. because there is not much to buy once you put in 500-800€. So I am 100% sure that's way better for their income to keep more player - even in lower level areas playing for longer than designing a game that punishes people for not playing perfect. As I said: Less than 10% pass lv 90. Maybe 1-2% of the player starting to play reach lv 100 (I suppose it's less) Removing the EXP penalty will allow the few % Top Tier player to be lv 100 1 week faster. What a shame... Haven't you said "reaching level 100 is not the goal" so why is it bad to reach it faster?

I am always talking about the average player between lv 70 and 90 who doesn't want to continue because progress from 1 week vanishes in 1 second. They will stop playing and likely not coming back - like I did in PoE 1.

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Seanprice798#2395 wrote:

I also love baseball, so I went to Fenway Park and explained to them that just because I have no eye-hand coordination, can't swing a bat, can't run, can't throw, that I deserve to be on that team. I, ME, am owed the opportunity to experience what other players do. I'm going to my local congressman and you will see me leading off next opening day.

THIS makes no sense on so much layers of existence...
What you referring to is: "I am to dumb to even finish the story because I don't know how to equip an item - now I have to start with a level 100 full geared character."

What I really mean is what I wrote a few times already.

People don't want to lose their progress on the way. Most will stop long before they are getting close to lv 100 anyway because it's a harsh time investment not a lot of people can bare. Likely even me included. But on the way to try it I don't want to get tossed back every single time I try to play content that's equal to my skills.

This includes dying but how can I know that my character has weak spots if I don't die? So dying is generally a part of the game. While finding this out and experimenting with items, skills and passives, I don't want to lose any EXP progress already done.

Playing low maps until I am heavily overgeared just to play content that's as low as the low content until I am overgeared as well just to play content that's not as low as content I used to play until being overgeared.

What people basically saying here is: Play low level shit until you outgear the area, go one area up and play it until you outgear it, one level up, play it until you outgear it...

I'd call that the even worse pussy approach than someone who's asking to remove the EXP penalty.


For everyone here that actually believes that I want to change the Game into something it is not... No... I give you 100% probability that there won't be any big change in gameplay rather than some people reaching lv 100 faster than they did before.
I want to change a mechanic that ACTUALLY causes people to leave. And I am also 100% positive on the fact that not a single player will actually leave if you remove it. But a good chunk of player will play longer, more characters and therefore be willing to spend real money. That's simply base mathmatics. If you don't get it, don't argue with me.

And following this I'd like to see the very best argument anyone has for his side of the discussion so I can debunk it as imagination right away and be done with this persons comments.

EXP loss isn't as punishing as it seems because 1) The passive tree is relatively weaker in this game 2) You have 100+ points, you put your most important points first, least important points last. Your final few points are your least meaningful points, unless you are just being stupid with point priority.

You can argue that endgame is badly tuned and 1 death maps are too much, but experience loss is absolutely necessary, or else your deaths/failures mean nothing and by extension neither do your successes.

Exp penalty should stay, but since poe is in ea, and there's still a lot of bugs it should be lowered to 5%.

Situation from today: i was doing a t6 map, and behind the door was only one mob, a normal skeleton, not magic, rare, just simply normal.
No other monster around, no traps whatsoever.
As soon as i opened the door to kill him i was dead.
I know it's early access, but that was a huge wtf just happened.

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AnimePillowCollector#2255 wrote:

EXP loss isn't as punishing as it seems because 1) The passive tree is relatively weaker in this game 2) You have 100+ points, you put your most important points first, least important points last. Your final few points are your least meaningful points, unless you are just being stupid with point priority.

You can argue that endgame is badly tuned and 1 death maps are too much, but experience loss is absolutely necessary, or else your deaths/failures mean nothing and by extension neither do your successes.

Thanks for starting with your best point. Let me quickly destroy it so we can go on.

10% EXP Lost, Map lost, Atlas Mod lost, Orbs for Map crafting lost, the possibility to play with friends lost (last point is semi fitting but the risk of dying doesn't allow me to play with friends because I can't do shit due to all the effects. Hence it is a single player game...

What on earth tells you that this amount of restriction due to a single outdated game mechanic can be justified?

What would change for you personally if they remove the EXP loss right now?

Do you really think people would bash their heads further against a difficulty they die in after they ran out of maps? Really? They automatically go down to farm lower areas to get more maps to attempt another try. But punishing someone with EXP loss for trying is as bad as it comes.

Want a little example from my real life since I have 2 kids. Would you tell your kid with about 1 year to stay on the ground continue crawling because it fell trying to walk or do you encourage your kid to stand up and try again?

Same applies here. You telling me I have to play lower areas because I am not fit to survive 99 of 100 maps while I claim that a solid 9 of 10 would be a good goal for me. But doing so gives me nothing but anger because 1 death causes me to lose more EXP than I got in the 9 maps that I cleared. Clearly not on lv 78 but surely at some point above 80. And 90 is the minimum goal I want to achieve...

Yes, most important points are spent first but the left over points from 80 to 100 can still have meaning.

Kicking the player when he is down is not a good concept, especially with these permanent penalties like EXP reduction/drain and item deletion.

Its just a cheap and easy and brainless way to design a game, and appeals to masochists who want to excel spreadsheet a game for 10 hours a day and who only see a purpose if there is endless grinding.

I do not want to sink XYZ hours into any game.
I find no enjoyment in grinding or increasing a number.

I enjoy variety and playing whatever class and spec i feel like at the moment because the class/gameplay mechanics are fun.

Systems which completely prevent me from enjoying the game are the ones that inflict EXP loss on death, permanent item loss on death and restrict the respec-ing of characters.

If devs want to think of a proper difficulty and threat to the player then they should actually use their brains to come up with a fun and engaging system - instead of just /DELETE a valuable resource.

Let's do one better to destroy your argument and move on ;

Why do you think level 100 is mandatory ?

Why do you think going from 70 to 100 is the main way of progressing endgame ?

Why do you think a build level 70 is not able to play ultra endgame maps ?

What do you think would happen if anybody and everybody could potentialy reach level 100 by just playing blindfolded in whatever maps and still get infinite amount of xp ? Why would that be a good game design and rewarding so ?

Why do you think punishment and challenge are disociated ? If there is no risk of punisment, then there is no challenge, and thus no rewards either.

Why do you think difficulty and tedious are dissociated ? It's difficult because it's tedious among other things. Be careful and don't yolo.

Why do you think you deserve to play the endgame if you keep dying over and over again before you reach it?

Why do you think playing a level while outgeared is lame if it exactly reduces a lot of chances of dying while still dropping ressources to progress ? Why do you need to play higher level and die there ? For the challenge ? What IS the challenge ? Getting things that feel rewarding ? They feel rewarding because there is a risk of losing them. And you'd lose them by dying. Ho yes, challenge = not dying because of the associated punisment...
So playing lower level maps IS a way of progression. And playing higher level maps FEELs more challenging because of the increase risk of death.

Removing death penalty would only completely removes lowers maps meaning as everyone could go blindly into higher tier with no risk, and no challenge, and no rewards either except the feeling that you always progress towards level 100 to feed your ego. This isn't this kind of game.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

So playing lower level maps IS a way of progression. And playing higher level maps FEELs more challenging because of the increase risk of death.

Removing death penalty would only completely removes lowers maps meaning as everyone could go blindly into higher tier with no risk, and no challenge, and no rewards either except the feeling that you always progress towards level 100 to feed your ego. This isn't this kind of game.

As i stated earlier, at this current state of game i'd only lower it to 5%.
When you can die out of nowhere, and don't even realize what have killed you.
And those post death explosion...that should be removed asap.

The current gameplay mechanics feel unnecessarily punishing, but not in a way that challenges skill—rather, they fail to respect the player's time. Spending five minutes running a single map only to realize that the elite enemy you need is at the farthest corner due to excessively repetitive corridors, dead ends, and convoluted layouts is frustrating. Even worse, after finally reaching the elite, being one-shot and losing all that invested time feels less like a challenge and more like poor gameplay design.

This isn't about punishment or difficulty; it's about creating a satisfying and engaging experience. If this happens multiple times in a row, many players will simply quit.

Remember, not all of us are content creators who need to grind for an audience. We log in seeking fun and meaningful challenges, not the sensation of wasting time due to poorly designed mechanics.

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Samain#6430 wrote:

The current gameplay mechanics feel unnecessarily punishing, but not in a way that challenges skill—rather, they fail to respect the player's time. Spending five minutes running a single map only to realize that the elite enemy you need is at the farthest corner due to excessively repetitive corridors, dead ends, and convoluted layouts is frustrating. Even worse, after finally reaching the elite, being one-shot and losing all that invested time feels less like a challenge and more like poor gameplay design.

This isn't about punishment or difficulty; it's about creating a satisfying and engaging experience. If this happens multiple times in a row, many players will simply quit.

Remember, not all of us are content creators who need to grind for an audience. We log in seeking fun and meaningful challenges, not the sensation of wasting time due to poorly designed mechanics.

And that's a fact.
But there's a lot of ppl saying ''get good'' which only proves they are brainless.
You know, elite of the poe players, the pantheon of gods.

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they fail to respect the player's time.

Respect your own time and stop playing a punishing hard video game you don't like by design ; instead of trying to change it into something it's not.

Nobody is forcing you to play it, nor to complain the forums about your hate and failures. Yet, you waste your time doing so. Why ? Who is to blame for that ?