Determination Nerf
" i really dont think it is. to understand this change i think people need to consider what jonathan and mark have been saying in interviews over the last 6 months. theres been talk with their big rethink of game mechanics brought on by poe2 development that player bonuses can be thought of in 2 camps, stuff that expands the amount of things you character can do and stuff that specialises into something you character already does. so putting on hybrid es+ar items expands what your character can do because you now have energy shield and armour, its added 2 mechanics to you. geting %es on the tree specialises you into the energy shield mechanic your character already has, so you are now focusing in on a specific thing your character already does. they talked about getting flat amounts of stuff is expanding your characters mechanics and that should come from gear, where as the passive tree should be about specialising into things your character already does. i believe their thoughts were that auras should specialise into something rather than being a way to expand the amount of things you can do. i hope im not butchering what the devs were saying too hard there, that was what i remember from the interviews tho. i think the changes are good, we got new bases with larger defence rolls + multiplicative quality + it looks like hybrid life rolls might be gone? so you dont rly trade off life, you get 1 life roll and then theres 2 prefixes for flat and % local defence. i hope thats what we are seeing with those 128 life boots anyway. people in here like sid have argued its wrong to get defences on your armour and you should be using auras instead and getting + curse or whatever on the chest. i dont think thats a healthy state, i dont think aura stackers should have the most armour and evasion. people wearing a really big plate armour with life + flat armour + % armour should generally be the people who have a lot of armour. i think its a step in the right direction. i think its an ideological change, sometimes you make a change like that and the resulting build balance or game balance doesnt really matter, we can see where everythings at when the dust settles and if you got to rebalance some other things then so be it. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :)
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i actually despise that getting %AR on AR-based chest is a bad choice in current game, it has been so for almost a decade. AR sucked since closed beta, without any exceptions.
the math is clear - getting %AR from chest is actually stupid thing to do, because both +curse (enfeeble) and phys-as-ele rolls are STRONGER than T1 AR roll on a T1 AR base. i can play for theme - i already do playing shit melee - but dont ask me to use mechanics backwards. GGG made them this way, i wont be gimping myself even more using AR chest for Armour. Brass Dome on a jugg - maybe, for anything else ill take any other TWO prefixes. not to mention that AR formula is junk and needs urgent change maybe, just maybe, this change they have in mind will fix it. i honestly doubt it when an aura gives you 50% MORE and the %aura effect is still in the game (they will not dare remove it after so long, so late in the game development) moving power to higher tier bases seems 'cool' but it is even more pressure on gear and in effect even more pressure to get items that bypass this madness - the magebloods, defiances and progenessises of this game. as long as these items exist, rare gear chase is kinda pointless once you realize these crutches are actually easier to obtain than rare set with all these artificial checkboxes checked |
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"Which 3rd prefix/es (after taken-as and curse) is/are stronger than T1 %armour on a 'Glorious Plate'? Or you mean on (influenced) Astral? Obviously on some builds I wouldnt want the %armour either but to me it looks like its competitive for a significant %% of builds. No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
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" Only generally competetive on some jugg builds, socket starvation from cta changes and the curse changes to ring mods and no mark on shaper ring anymore makes it a bit harder to apply the extra curse in the first place. Last edited by Lonnie455Rich#2087 on Jul 12, 2024, 2:38:46 PM
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"Not sure what you are trying to say. If you mean %armour is only competitive on some Jugg builds: Same question as above: Which 3rd prefix/es is/are generally superior? No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
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You're going to lock suffix reforge caster and prioritize no life and open prefix, not % armour. What I would call competitive as a mod would be locking suffix reforge caster and spending the 2d until you have % armour, additional curse and open prefix.
I'm saying there is a difference between saying "oh cool i got % armour", and saying "i have to reforge this with additional curse until i have the % armour." On a jugg, if you use unbreakable the armour actually means something. If you're on berserker (for example) that little bit of armour doesn't mean anything except small phys hits and it does absolutely nothing against shaper/elder slam and harvest bear hits, which are the typical non-random phys hits that slap. Its possible that this point won't be 100% true anymore come patch notes. We don't know that yet though My other point is actually fitting the second curse in the build is a problem with socket starvation has been getting worse constantly. Last edited by Lonnie455Rich#2087 on Jul 12, 2024, 3:31:26 PM
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"I was looking at it from a "I can pick 3 prefixes without crafting cost, what do I want?" kind of perspective. If you start with a Delve-fractured +1 Curse (no idea how expensive, dont play trade league) you can craft it cheaper though. But with limited means I wouldnt focus on the %armour either. No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
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if i had to 'print' defensive armour from generator it would be something like this:
+ phys as ele benchcraft + curse + temple life hybrid (beats 15% from mastery) OR stun/ailment avoidance veil on a build that doesnt have this from other sources. Stormshroud is a waste in Adorned meta. + spell suppresion + 8 %PDR + offensive roll on an AR/EV hybrid because it is criminal to not include spell suppression (removing all pure AR pieces from the table outright) you could get curse from delve, but it is top 1% option so it means hunter/shaper and that means no eldritch implicit (lets get real, it means no double aura effect). so there is tradeoff. because you dont really care about quality, there is a selection of harvest options to shore up missing stats for a perspective POBed Glorious (30%, top %) with %T1 goes from 1000 to 1800 - so flat 800 armour. noticeable yet completely irrelevant in the grand scheme. it actually boils down to the aura effect implicits vs +curse/offensive roll you can get from influenced chest AR rolls problem is that you need both flat and %, two prefixes, to actually make a difference. and two prefixes is A LOT in a 'i will overwhelm your PDR to the stone age' meta for a jugg tho - with brass dome in the game, you need to have a very, very peculiar need to use rare with double armour ascendancy. Brass Dome is seriously hard to beat on defences |
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"Ok, wouldnt have included the temple life hybrid unless its fractured which interferes with the curse. Anyway the next best would still be %armour. "Different argument, havent used any armour base in long time due to Spell Suppression issues. "I get 1159,6 -> 2140,8 = 981 armour out of a "POBed" %armour mod. "AR alone being bad for most builds is "well known". AR is still good if you combine it with taken-as and %phys_mitigation. Thats also where small differences have the biggest impact for tankiness. No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
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Is there a patch note for this? I haven't seen it. If it's the same as the changes they made to ruthless determ a few leagues back, then I agree with some of the comments that it's more of a nerf to characters without base armor than characters heavily invested in armour. However, OP also might have a point that it is mainly a nerf for players using armour, which is bottom left in a lot of cases.
Ruthless from about a year ago- Determination no longer causes you and nearby allies to gain additional Armour in Ruthless. In Ruthless, it now has "You and nearby allies gain 55% more Armour" at gem level 1 (previously 40%), scaling up to 74% at gem level 20 (previously 49%)." So there is a breakpoint where it becomes better/worse depending on how much base armour you have from other sources. At lvl20, without extra 2000 flat on aura, its about 12000 flat (1.49(x+2000))=1.74x). Most builds are not going to have that, it's like brass dome + unbreakable + armour shield + granite flask + other. Though as some people have pointed out, builds with more armour will be less effected, or potentially even better once they pass the break point. So if your character has 8000 base armour and 200% increased armour, it will still have about 94% total armour that they had, so, a slight nerft but relatively similar. Builds that are just running a 1500ar granite flask and 500ar on gear and 100% increased armour, will have about 58% of what they had. So it's a much bigger nerf if not heavily invested in armor. Therefor if it's the same as the ruthless changes - Builds with very high flat armour above breakpoint (Buff) Builds that don't use determination (No effect/ relative buff excet vs the above case) Builds with flat armour approaching breakpoint (slight nerf but less so the more you have) Builds with lower flat armour (bigger nerf) Builds with no other source of flat armour that use determ (nerf/ no benefit from determ) Last edited by Belegur85#5784 on Jul 12, 2024, 9:13:49 PM
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