Determination Nerf

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Pashid wrote:

If anything it's a nerf for all those builds on the right side using both grace and determination

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Bosscannon wrote:

There is no power creep in the game except for the very top end of it.
Midgame is more nerfed than ever and with this change even more so.

THIS ^^ 100% all facts. Simple truth of the matter is this nerf is aimed at the currently popular armor stacker build with replica dreamfeathers. Instead of nerfing the mechanics; in true GGG fashion it's gonna be a lazy nerf as usual which outright nerfs everyone who's not on the top end of things or using that specific meta build. As a result, anyone who even uses determination will be punished by this nerf.

Only question remains is does this mean the 24k - 25k fire res bugged chest will be nerfed / fixed to proper values within their actual tiers? In that short teaser video GGG didn't just "happen" to scroll over determination; that was a hint at the upcoming nerf that's in their crosshairs. GGG aims for one thing but is not a good shot and just ends up hitting everything remotely around the target instead of hitting center mass.

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WoT_Seanchan wrote:

Only question remains is does this mean the 24k - 25k fire res bugged chest will be nerfed / fixed to proper values within their actual tiers?

Thats quite a big question. Long ago Chris Wilson in a reddit post said they are hunting those bugged items with "big priority". That statement is now several years old and the bugged fire resistance chest (24000+ fore resistance) is still there.

Reddit source of GGG post: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/84ekvo/is_ggg_going_to_comment_on_these_bugged_items/

And for any devs may reading here is a trade link from the offical poe trade website to see the bug chests:

https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Standard/pZrnMjeC0

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WoT_Seanchan wrote:

THIS ^^ 100% all facts. Simple truth of the matter is this nerf is aimed at the currently popular armor stacker build with replica dreamfeathers. Instead of nerfing the mechanics; in true GGG fashion it's gonna be a lazy nerf as usual which outright nerfs everyone who's not on the top end of things or using that specific meta build. As a result, anyone who even uses determination will be punished by this nerf.

Determination is not the main source of armor for armor stacker, the minor change will do nothing to them at all.
If they want to nerf armor stacker they are going to touch the main components Iron Reflexes and and the weapons. Could happen this league or maybe sometime but we'll see what GGG has worked on decently soon once the actual Patch notes hit.

The short highlight could be the values of a level 21 gem or even level 1.
But even if it's a nerf for the aura the new base items and quality are going to compensate the difference.
First possibility would only result in a shift of early player power into late player power, and the other option is just even more player power as we already have.

And yea player power is crazy since leagues but you wouldn't know as a standard player since you likely haven't played any new character through the current early and mid game at all lately, or any character with all the additional temporarily or permanent player power of the past leagues that we had in one or another way lol.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

What changes are you thinking about when saying that? They nerfed RF, TS and just about every melee build in existence but other than that we only got tons of powercreep each league since Kalandra not to mention all the new powerful uniques that got introduced. If anything the power of spells and bows has gone through the roof with buff after buff.

- The removal of heist alt quality gems for example as most of them only increased player power in some way while just a few actually enabled a build.
- veiled chaos orb change cause before you could just craft certain endgame items early on pretty cheap vs not you likely have to invest way more into it
- t17 content being mandatory for uber fights instead of spamming normal invitations with keystone (good for the health of a fresh league and even later on with fewer uber items on the market as before the change)
- Molten Shell nerf during crucible league
- 5 way nerf, yes it's indirectly also power creep in terms of leveling via a cheese method.
- recent flask change
- several support gem changes
- removal of some mastery choices
- crucible, affliction and necropolis had buffed enemies in some way

and actually lots of more changes solely to tone down player power in a normal way if you look up all the older changes.
Sure the previous leagues also introduced player power in one or another way but at least things like release tattoos, LoK mirrored items, sanctum relics, and affliction charms didn't made it into the base game. And the loot explosions hopefully also find an end with the next leagues as dirt cheap t0 uniques early in the league ain't helpful either as is for power creep.

Same with the current league it's hopefully just temp player power with graveyard not making it into the game as it's literally a worse item editor than OG harvest was.

Half of those aren't player power reductions, the playerpower is just hidden behind a bigger grind wall. If you push through that you have the same/more power than before.

I can't recall any meaningful supportgem changes outside of heist quality and heist quality was replaced with trans gems which are just as powerful.

The only thing on that list that was an actual nerf to playerpower was the MS nerf and i guess the removal of helm enchants along with heist gems. Those might compensate all the powercreep we got for builds that are affected by them but builds that didn't need helm enchants or alt gems? They got buff after buff. And guess what builds got hurt the most by the MS nerf? Bottom left side builds, typically melee. Meanwhile all the deadeyes out there didn't give a damn.

That's precisely what i meant last page. GGG isn't reducing power overall. They remove some here (MS nerf) and put it there (Bow buffs) instead or they hide it behind grind walls (T17). In both cases the no life meta faction is not bothered in the least while the rest suffers.

the 'nerfs' were cleverly hidden. the biggest one is Spell Suppression

GGG added this stat to help with spell damage - while increasing spell damage making this stat pretty much mandatory. at first glance it is just grinding problem - 'just get SS, stop whining' - isnt it?

well.. for characters that are not naturally located around SS clusters this means a) using off-character items (EV bases on a witch or whatever) b) heavy investment into alternative sources of SS (Magebane etc) or c) getting wrecked

Spell Suppression was one of the biggest nerfs in POE history and yet players seem happy about it :) you lost few affixes and few passives just to be at the same power level as before its introduction

bottom-left characters got strictly nerfed - their 'trick' (max res) got nullified by proliferation of ele pen in endgame.


another nerf that affected me - lowering charges when hit on flaks from 7 to 3. that mod was actually one of the great upsides of bottom-left chars. you get hit often and it is dangerous but your flasks are 99.9% up and ready to go. sure, with '3' + some affixes (see?) on belt you can get to comfy level but again - you pay for something you had for free

was it strong? yep. but it works on magic flasks and does not affect Mageblood anyway


at the same time the powercreep is insane and centers around gotcha uniques - Progenesis, Defiance, Mageblood, Kalandra's ring (cheap now, it wont last), Ralakesh combo (it should turn green and be called a Set Item now, along with badge/wand/shield/helmet)
'regular' builds have their power taken away and moved into gotcha items that both trivialize the build design and put a hard-cap on 'casual power'. content is tuned for 1% of builds (T17) making the 99% not worth investing into

The problem with many of the things being brought up in this thread is GGG's solution to them is often dumb.

For example yes the flask charge nerf going from 7 to 3 on hit was a big one, they also changed flasks so they weren't supposed to be up 100% of the time then immediately added magebane and modifiers so they were up 100% of the time.

Armour stacking is flawed and always was, its a double branching failure firstly associated with the aura effectiveness problems they created in Delirium then never addressed and secondly its entirely hinged on replica dreamfeather allowing scaling from a defensive attribute which GGG are hardline against in every other circumstance I can think of.

Original dreamfeather scaled from evade because it was self limiting and was designed with intent. Replica was simply a heist funzone mistake like Alberons etc and if they wanted to "fix" armourstacking you can do it instantly as a result they don't need to nerf determination to do that and its daft to suggest that is why they are doing so.

Spell suppression was a reasonable solution to the fact evade based characters didn't have enough health for endgame but because the value chosen was so high it became viewed as a mandatory goal by the playerbase, which also made GGG bake it in for damage values on bosses as we always knew they would.

As mentioned it does have a cost associated with it but framing it as a nerf is daft, GGG shit a brick about fortify actually being usable for melee or anyone in fact yet simultaneously let you gear for 50% less spell damage taken (i realise it isn't actually a less but it may as well be) for less investment.

All of these are dumb, don't try and decipher what they are doing and just make the most of what they give us :p

The overall summary is the "average" character has been repeatedly stealth nerfed pretty much every league where they've added power creep while simultaneously every character who engages with the meta strategies and dives in has only gotten stronger. I personally view this as a major failing but as my line above you just have to go with the flow these days, the balance of PoE is way beyond fixing at this state just work out what direction they are pushing you in and move in that direction.

@sidtherat

Yeah spell suppression is typical GGG bs.

@Draegnarrr

More examples of the same.

In fact everything you wrote is absolutely true and highlights GGG micromanaging the game into boring slog where only select grindables get you ahead. Everyone end up chasing same items. Market cornering "entrepreneurs" and varga shop are happy. Everyone who want the game to be more than mindless treadmill are not.

Forgive me for not doing math, but removing a lot of the flat armour from determination will make early maps hit significantly harder. A lot of builds only source of armour post kitava is determination. And the str requirement might not be meet for high level determination anyway.

But this change will barely affect endgame minmax builds comparatively. Even if the net loss is offset by new gear, rolling pure armour is not fun. We might need a harvest reforge for ev/es/arm on chests or something.

Also many builds use unique chests and only function with them on. They don't have a choice but to eat the nerf.

Why can't GGG reign in mirror builds without destroying 5 chaos one?

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roundishcap wrote:

Forgive me for not doing math, but removing a lot of the flat armour from determination will make early maps hit significantly harder. A lot of builds only source of armour post kitava is determination. And the str requirement might not be meet for high level determination anyway.

But this change will barely affect endgame minmax builds comparatively. Even if the net loss is offset by new gear, rolling pure armour is not fun. We might need a harvest reforge for ev/es/arm on chests or something.

Also many builds use unique chests and only function with them on. They don't have a choice but to eat the nerf.

Why can't GGG reign in mirror builds without destroying 5 chaos one?

With armour quality changes it will likely have you roughly the same value if you quality your gear and use armour bases. As stated before this will most likely only nerf builds that use evasion es bases and run determination for some phys dr on small hits.

in realistic yet bonkers example - aka Mageblood (granite with %armour roll) + Determ%auraeffect - you get:

2200 flat
50% more
(*50% aura effect)

2800 flat
90% increased

for a total of 15000 with ZERO armour gear/passives.

cutting Aura in half moves that to 11000. it is quite significant loss given the formula AND most probably end of phys-as-ele