A change to melee (yes this again)
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Boneshatter has always been the proof that people play melee when its numerical acceptable to do so. It also highlights that all the core problems we constantly state are infact core problems not just us blowing smoke.
Just to review Boneshatter -doesn't use bugged swingtime -built in melee splash -high base damage -extra scalar for development Its basically the tried and true list for every skill we actually want to use :p and when GGG finally add some of these to other melee skills people gonna gasp when they actually see some use. Never gonna be bows obviously but considering how easy the changes are this is a free win that's been on the table for years now. Melee has plenty of problems but I'm still amazed they never take the low hanging fruit. |
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" If you look at his build its pretty near perfect on the gear. The only easy upgrade i can see is a lethal pride on bottom middle socket and dropping the top side of the axe wheel on the left then tempering orb on weapon. Its pretty min maxed. Easily 1400-1500 divines if you were playing hc trade. with half of that budget being defiance of destiny and mageblood. Might I add this gear is pretty unobtainable without grave crafting outside of standard. If you compare this setup to a 1500 divine archmage (or any other decent) build you're clearing t17s and nearly insta deleting the bosses whole shotgunning the whole screen and decently ranged. The question, especially if playing hc (a death on a 1500 divine investment is super depressing). Is why invest 1500 in boneshatter when you could invest 100 in another skill and get the same results. Last edited by Lonnie455Rich#2087 on Jul 4, 2024, 10:54:28 AM
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I don't think you should balance or ask that question really Lonnie, I wouldn't play any of the fruitcake builds I actually do if I compared them to something else.
They should stand up in isolation and therein lies the problem. If you compare everything you just end up dissatisfied, the developer should sure but we the players should be more focused on other things. Especially on HC where div/hr isn't really a relevant metric in the same way it is on SC. |
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" I'm surprised that you value my gear that high, considering I crafted it all on a Private League. Yes the neck was sick lucky drop, and the Belt+Flask was bought upon transfering to trade. But my gear doesn't utilize Synthesis Mods, Corruptions, has no mirrored gear and almost no jewels. I know it's subjective, but I'd classify my Boneshatter as a "mid-investment" build. Why is that interesting? My argument is that almost any melee build can do almost any content with "high investment" (albeit some will be more consistant/efficient) aka VERY good gear on temp leagues or semi good gear/legacy gear on standard. BUT... I also agree that more melee builds should be able to do pinnacle content on mid-investment level gear (what I consider my gear). This is where I both agree and disagree with OP, in that I do believe it's possible, but I think the expectations of where the barrier of entry is differ a lot. AND... I also think it's OK if not many melee (or any archetype for that matter) can do pinnacle content on low-budget aka league start. If your goal of the game is to do pinnacle content early and with little investment, I find it fair that you're pigeonholeded into one of the very OP builds. |
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" I'm surprised that you value my gear that high, considering I crafted it all on a Private League. Yes the neck was sick lucky drop, and the Belt+Flask was bought upon transfering to trade. But my gear doesn't utilize Synthesis Mods, Corruptions, has no mirrored gear and almost no jewels. I know it's subjective, but I'd classify my Boneshatter as a "mid-investment" build. Why is that interesting? My argument is that almost any melee build can do almost any content with "high investment" (albeit some will be more consistant/efficient) aka VERY good gear on temp leagues or semi good gear/legacy gear on standard. BUT... I also agree that more melee builds should be able to do pinnacle content on mid-investment level gear (what I consider my gear). This is where I both agree and disagree with OP, in that I do believe it's possible, but I think the expectations of where the barrier of entry is differ a lot. AND... I also think it's OK if not many melee (or any archetype for that matter) can do pinnacle content on low-budget aka league start. If your goal of the game is to do pinnacle content early and with little investment, I find it fair that you're pigeonholeded into one of the very OP builds.[/quote] melee is actually fine IF you have super end game tier gear. the biggest problem is the "in between". if compared to other skills in the game, the curve where you start to have fun/feel good/build works using melee tends to be at the far end of your journey. when you start a 2handed marauder, you might get stun locked by random crabs, knocking you out of your swing animation. but that same character can delete bosses/enemies within seconds when theyre fully geared. reminds me of the time i pointed out how sanctum highlighted how bad melee performed. even mathil advised players to avoid melee that league. and some smart ass 'proved' me wrong by showing one guy using a melee build that deletes everything in seconds (even lycia), never getting hit and getting an original sin. for sure melee is good when you're at that level. but what about the in between? its absolutely unfun. [Removed by Support]
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The problem with having a melee that will truly delete a boss, not a 17 minute uber maven fight, truly do real people dps. you have <10k ehp usually unless you're trickster or pf with ridiculous defense.
I'm sure there are really good ways to build some well rounded melee builds that aren't right side (due to phys taken as and suppression being op) Its just that the people smart enough to set them up (too bad I'm dumb) aren't wasting their time with it. Or the gear investment is so high that "why?" becomes the question. https://poe.ninja/builds/necropolis/character/Lonnie455Rich/Crashenshit?type=exp&i=0&search=class%3DBerserker%26name%3Denshit I made this build just to do t17 achievements, I had to swap over to sc to do them because they were too toxic. Guildys basically gave me 99 % of this gear/divines to do it. Back when I played sc (3.19 was last sc league for me) this would have been a pretty solid defensive setup. I got absolutely destroyed in some of the t17s I was doing. I easily killed uber shaper exarch and eater, dying only once to skill issue with beam. Adding that content really put a stress test on every build archetype in the game. It has me wondering if this was by design. Maybe ggg wanted to see what players did when they met a challenge that seemed impossible. I'm sure it would be easy to guess that str stacking melee would easily be the best marauder setup since it really props up bottom left tree. They have made it clear they hate generals cry builds for many leagues here recently for some reason. Last edited by Lonnie455Rich#2087 on Jul 4, 2024, 5:11:47 PM
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" there are many things that led to this. melee bad is one component, t17s are bad (in my pov), powercreeps in POE is (also my pov). and i think there is one major issue which led to melee being bad. which is power creep. GGG doesnt like nerfing players as getting nerfed isnt fun. some people just rage quit if their build is nerfed. i always found block/dodge/evade as OP mechanics. especially since players could just layer them over and be "immortal". as a result ggg made tougher content. this is why we have such high damage spikes. but it was not enough. the top players in poe are super fucking strong. and they were getting bored of the game with less things to do. so ggg kept making tougher and tougher challenges. it definitely satiated some of them. but even then they could come up with broken builds that broke the game anyway. even just recently i saw someone in the forum saying the game is getting easier and that t17s were a joke. that person is who ggg caters to. josh strife hayes usually mentions, whenever you set the bar up higher, you kill exploration as players are forced to become more efficient. similarly asmongold said something similar where he said if you make difficult content that require players to play a certain way, they will all be forced to play that certain way. you're not forced to do it, but if you want to run the content, but technically you need to be as efficient as possible as the room for error and inefficiency is very small. this is a problem with the game design baked in to POE1. its also one reason the devs kinda "gave up" trying to save poe1. [Removed by Support]
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The problem is that when there is a strong melee build. it gets blasted out of orbit. Lightning strike and divergent bs and divergent trauma being the most recent. As well as heatshiver getting the nerf bat because bows were too strong with it. corpsewalkers nerf was intended for dd (I think) but it nerfed generals cry shield crush. call to arms nerfed that build as well too. mantra of flames and replica hotheaded nuked some scaling opportunities for buff stackers and self chill. (probably because spark was op with it) Fortify was ruined because of casters.
I could go on for days but I feel like no matter what balance will happen because of op skills and melee will always end up a casualty to that nerf in some way and there's not enough given in return. You wake up on league start, league after league. Your build is objectively worse and the content keeps getting harder. |
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" Just scale your damage properly. From what i've seen of your builds you do build decent defenses and you've got to be a much better player than me if you managed to do ubers on that 3 mio dps slammer but the builds i saw from you all wasted tons of dps for little to no reason. The slammer by going RT, i gave you an example how to build that with more damage via PM already. You also had an LS champ a while ago with Mahuxotl that had like 5 mio iirc. If you had used Doryanis prototype on that build like pretty much everyone else you'd probably have had 2 or 3 times that with very little difference in EHP. 1 or 2 months ago i posted a POB in general discussion for a dualstrike champ for like 1 div that had 6 or 7 mio dps with Ahn's might. I later optimized it further and got it to 10 mio, same budget. If you go meta with it and use DSoA you can easily get to 20mio+ for <10 div, probably even <5 div. I never really made a build that can insta delete ubers, the amount of damage required for that requires quite a bit of grinding and i am lazy as hell but i've got a whole collection of builds with 20-50 mio DPS and none of them uses strength stacking or has crazy mirror gear. Aside from the one MB i have on one of them (and that took me like 6 years to get) the most expensive single item is probably a voidforge. It's not insta deleting but you can make builds that do ubers in a somewhat timely fashion (10-20 seconds per phase) with this level of DPS. And the price tag in SC for this kind of build is around 30-40 div depending on league, timing and build. 100+ mio dps glasscannons are crazy expensive and just plain bad as melee but if you settle for 20-30 mio DPS with good defense you can ignore a lot of uber mechanics and get high dps uptime to kill them just as fast as a 100 mio glass cannon with shitty uptime but with WAY less currency. Last edited by Baharoth15#0429 on Jul 5, 2024, 3:31:42 AM
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" this, +1 then there are systemic problems: - phys weapons are incredibly hard to roll (even with gravecrafting albeit it makes it much easier) - phys builds (non-convert) are uber-expensive passive's wise to do and still suck (reducing phys damage reduction on mobs, esp on impale builds FORCES impale masteries - without it impale deals 1/4th of the damage or less, melee bleed requires certain pair of shit boots etc) - some skills are just numerically garbage (legendary Infernal Blow's single target anyone? even with ignite it is just weak) - melee skills DO NOT benefit from +levels - while GGG pumps sources of +levels to the game with a hose - damage scalars are UNIVERSAL (supports, passives, misc skills like curses) but melee's low weapon base damage is unique to melee. there is no way to 'catch up'. thus hardly anyone does things like melee ignite. the numbers just dont make it a viable idea (unless you do XXX stack to get the base damage, but then you can as well use wand or a toothpick, weapon choice and skill choice gets irrelevant at that point) - and all it has to offer is 10m dps with flasks, totems and accidental sun eclipse up builds that break that barrier: - get flat damage outside their weapon (XXX stacking, things like manastorm, things like trauma or rage for flat phys) - use one of VERY few skills 'that can' (DS of Ambi, Bonezone, Wild Strike of ele-inversion and few more) - use one of VERY few weapons 'that can' (Paradoxica, Voidforge, even FrostBreath) - universaly use Mageblood aka 'make anything work' item - and Adorned.. if one sticks to rare phys weapons, 'regular' skills, 'regular' scaling (heck, even with Adorned) - 10m (no-flask unless mageblood) is tough. esp when 1/3rd comes from totems that die from slight breeze not to mention that these regular items are expensive and divine per performance ratio is absurdly low sure, one can play with 2m, good defences and farm legions/alvas and make good money - but T17 make ABSURD money creating inflation and making that 'good' income irrelevant. and T17 are build-limited like nothing in POE's history ever was - so all these fluff, cute builds are no longer viable choice. melee is barely playable in T17, even the 'good' choices. T17 were a colossal mistake no amount of money will turn T16 Infernal Blow farmer into T17 B2B farmer - unless you go XXX stacking. phys weapon and shit? NO WAY. |
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