Borrowed Power should not be the new standard / Predicament of standard

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alhazred70 wrote:

Considering D2 items collecting and persistent MMOs I think it's pretty disingenuous to pretend standard was an afterthought. the first leagues were released as (paraphrasing) "ladder resets with beta tests of new mechanics before we put them into the permanent game". Void leagues of almost every event ever were to "protect the standard economy"

Again some folks seem to have less grasp of poe history than they think.

They figured out that the "temp leagues" were the main draw on hindsight standard was not some afterthought. Standard was the place that gave items permanence like D2 items. Chris says as much in his GDC talk.

it really bothers me that i want to prove them wrong but all this was from roughly 10 years ago.

it frustrates me whenever i hear people say POE has always been all about temp leagues.

it infuriates me whenever people downplay standard enjoyers.

but of all of it the thing that gets to me the most is actually GGG. i wouldnt need to complain if things didnt turn out this way.

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exsea wrote:

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alhazred70 wrote:

Considering D2 items collecting and persistent MMOs I think it's pretty disingenuous to pretend standard was an afterthought. the first leagues were released as (paraphrasing) "ladder resets with beta tests of new mechanics before we put them into the permanent game". Void leagues of almost every event ever were to "protect the standard economy"

Again some folks seem to have less grasp of poe history than they think.

They figured out that the "temp leagues" were the main draw on hindsight standard was not some afterthought. Standard was the place that gave items permanence like D2 items. Chris says as much in his GDC talk.

it really bothers me that i want to prove them wrong but all this was from roughly 10 years ago.

it frustrates me whenever i hear people say POE has always been all about temp leagues.

it infuriates me whenever people downplay standard enjoyers.

but of all of it the thing that gets to me the most is actually GGG. i wouldnt need to complain if things didnt turn out this way.

As a fellow standard enjoyer I feel that same frustration tbh I think GGG has only done themselves a disservice by neglecting the thing that lends item permanence to the game. Even a little focus on standard QoL could only help the game overall but even just not feeling completely abandoned and ignored would go a long way for the percentage who play the mode.

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alhazred70 wrote:

Agreed and agreed no one in 2011-2013 would ship a game with only 3 month emp leagues and talk about $700 bows being sold on eBay. Chris and the gang were jay ess pee enjoyers for fucks sake. That site and permanent items are why poe is so insanely trade focused.

To anyone trying to revise history remember some of us where here in beta.

And yet you are so wrong about the history....I too was here for the beta. I too played almost nonstop since 2012. I too watched all the press releases, read all the documents, etc. I am not denying that the ORIGINAL intention of this game was basically D2 clone + improvements. But it VERY quickly diverged from that almost immediately following full release.

I even said in an earlier post....perhaps through the beta the intention was for Standard to be THE league to play, but the second they started rolling out temporary leagues for the first time and saw the profit behind them and the player numbers, then THAT became their pivot. As early as 2014 people were complaining right here on this forum that Standard was dead because devs had given up entirely on it. Those posts are still there for you to find! It was a SLOW process at first because leagues were further apart and the damage from standard trash dump was minimal at first. But every subsequent league showed right from 2013 that their initial D2-based approach was NOT how they were proceeding. CW said as far back as 2014 that the money making comes from league content, NOT standard. That the TRUE way to make an everlasting game is understanding that players WILL burnout and quit, and that the game needs to be designed to give players a reason to keep coming back after they quit (temporary leagues).

Here's just one example from 2019, although he has parroted these same lines in almost every interview where questions on design philosophy comes up.
https://youtu.be/tmuy9fyNUjY?t=1221

The game is literally designed on the premise that players QUIT, but return for the next new shiny thing. Their stated goal is NOT to retain players in a standard graveyard, but give them FLASHES of game to be enjoyed temporarily until the next new league.

When they were working on this in a garage, they had one idea for the design of the game. Upon release, they entered the REAL world: a world in which money determines growth and longevity and they quickly leaned the money route which ended up being temporary leagues and NOT standard. They were the ones with the stats, they had the numbers and sales records, and they made their choices clear.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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And yet you are so wrong about the history....

I am not denying that the ORIGINAL intention of this game was basically D2 clone + improvements. But it VERY quickly diverged from that almost immediately following full release.

I'm wrong but I'm right... Okay so anyway...

lol its funny how people non chalantly say that the goal is not to retain standard players.

i played exclusively for standard. the entire reason i am back was i thought the new ascendencies would make my standard character stronger.

also, the moment that diablo 4 announced that their seasonal mechanic was borrowed power, i uninstalled d4 and never looked back.

i play GD, i played D1, D2, dungeon siege. sacred. titan quest.

standard is the essence of all arpgs/diablo clones.

temp leagues are an evolution. neglecting one for another is reckless. ggg has been very reckless.

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exsea wrote:

lol its funny how people non chalantly say that the goal is not to retain standard players.

people....aka the literal designers of the game you are currently playing. very funny indeed. If only they knew that you were the one who should be making the decisions!

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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exsea wrote:

lol its funny how people non chalantly say that the goal is not to retain standard players.

people....aka the literal designers of the game you are currently playing. very funny indeed. If only they knew that you were the one who should be making the decisions!

you know, i wanted to just brush you off but i dont want to do so without checking the source you posted. you took the effort to post your source and i can respect that.

i watched the part you highlighted.

chris himself stated with the slide clearly stating "make players quit with a plan to come back".

did he specifically mention standard? he did not mention any particular group.

if you take into the context of what he is saying, he doesnt want players to get burnt out. players are going to quit inevitably and thus temp leagues would provide the means for players to come back.

this applies quite well to temp league enjoyers.

what about people like me who play temp league ONLY for the rewards to bring to standard? it doesnt work too well. we quit and quit cold turkey. we DO come back whenever we feel like it OR if a new league has items/mechanics that enrich us on standard.

thus his statement does not apply to people like me.

what about "pure standard enjoyers"? i used to be a pure standard enjoyer. i can tell you, my mindset back then was "i play the game because i enjoy the game" and "i dont care about temp leagues, i dont want to farm everything all over again"

and thus the statement cannot apply to them either.

i think if you ask any game dev, IF they can keep players enjoying their game forever would it be desirable? player retention is ALWAYS desirable.

but you know what? we're just forummers. you're taking your his words and spun it to make your view seem correct, and i did the same too. who is correct? i dont even pretend to know what chris has on his mind. but i would say its logical to believe game devs always value player retention.

I think they have gone a little too far with the borrowed power/loot lately. I hope they change the focus of new leagues to have mechanics/bosses that can be implemented permanently rather than a temporary loot-piñata with content that cannot be allowed into the core game post league. Hopefully it is just because they have very limited resources working for PoE1 until PoE2 has been released and it will normalize a little post release.

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exsea wrote:

did he specifically mention standard? he did not mention any particular group.

if you take into the context of what he is saying, he doesnt want players to get burnt out. players are going to quit inevitably and thus temp leagues would provide the means for players to come back.

this applies quite well to temp league enjoyers.

what about people like me who play temp league ONLY for the rewards to bring to standard? it doesnt work too well. we quit and quit cold turkey. we DO come back whenever we feel like it OR if a new league has items/mechanics that enrich us on standard.

thus his statement does not apply to people like me.

what about "pure standard enjoyers"? i used to be a pure standard enjoyer. i can tell you, my mindset back then was "i play the game because i enjoy the game" and "i dont care about temp leagues, i dont want to farm everything all over again"

and thus the statement cannot apply to them either.

YES YES YES That is the entire point!!!!! His comments DON'T apply to you or players like you......because the game is NOT designed with YOU in mind. He doesn't have to name a specific group, it is quite obvious: the philosophy is that players do NOT stick around (play standard), they play for a bit and get bored and leave, and then GGG wrangles them back. That ONLY happens with league play. THAT is their focus. They do not care about standard-only players. They do not care about players who "play the league to enrich their standard characters". It literally isn't in their design philosophy because that group of people is so extremely small that they may as well not exist to the developers of the game.

That is the entire point of his video, that is the entire point of all previous videos stating the same thing. There is no reading between the lines necessary, there is no ambiguity. The "design philosophy" is completely centered around attracting players BACK: that is their version of "player retention". It is NOT about keeping players here forever OVER playing other games.

This whole argument is based around some kind of fantasy world where standard is the TRUE PoE game mode. It isn't, GGG has TOLD us it isn't, their design philosophy and choices SHOW us it isn't, and the numbers provided to us BY GGG shows us that even the players realize it isn't. You are playing against the grain of the game. That's fine, do what you want and what you find fun. But don't complain that they aren't paying attention to you, when they have shown in every possible way that Standard just doesn't matter to them.

Hate the messenger all you want, but that is the reality. This game exists to be played in 3-4 month spurts of new mechanic gameplay. Really, 1-2 months plus a break, to return 2 months later. Standard exists because it HAS to exist, but for over a decade it has received NO attention except global changes meant for league play.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

YES YES YES That is the entire point!!!!! His comments DON'T apply to you or players like you......because the game is NOT designed with YOU in mind. He doesn't have to name a specific group, it is quite obvious: the philosophy is that players do NOT stick around (play standard), they play for a bit and get bored and leave, and then GGG wrangles them back. That ONLY happens with league play. THAT is their focus. They do not care about standard-only players. They do not care about players who "play the league to enrich their standard characters". It literally isn't in their design philosophy because that group of people is so extremely small that they may as well not exist to the developers of the game.

That is the entire point of his video, that is the entire point of all previous videos stating the same thing. There is no reading between the lines necessary, there is no ambiguity. The "design philosophy" is completely centered around attracting players BACK: that is their version of "player retention". It is NOT about keeping players here forever OVER playing other games.

This whole argument is based around some kind of fantasy world where standard is the TRUE PoE game mode. It isn't, GGG has TOLD us it isn't, their design philosophy and choices SHOW us it isn't, and the numbers provided to us BY GGG shows us that even the players realize it isn't. You are playing against the grain of the game. That's fine, do what you want and what you find fun. But don't complain that they aren't paying attention to you, when they have shown in every possible way that Standard just doesn't matter to them.

Hate the messenger all you want, but that is the reality. This game exists to be played in 3-4 month spurts of new mechanic gameplay. Really, 1-2 months plus a break, to return 2 months later. Standard exists because it HAS to exist, but for over a decade it has received NO attention except global changes meant for league play.

you know what. as much as i hate it. thats how it is. i disagreed with some of your previous posts on what you deem as borrowed power differs than mine. but i ll agree with you on your final statements.

everything GGG has done up to this point shows no love for standard.