Borrowed Power should not be the new standard / Predicament of standard

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fenixsemcinzas wrote:

Tehy have a mageblood.
It does not counts. Is impossbile to level with that

Okay you are clearly trolling so I'm stopping now lol. Literally clicked on 3 of the level 100s at random. Only 1 of the 3 was using a mageblood. But hey, feel free to keep adding on conditions until your point is "true". Do they need to be naked level 100 to prove the lie?

And re: blight damage...clearly you have no idea how blight works. Actual dps is in the millions. Potentially a boss-killer build. AWFUL build, AWFUL skill, probably feels AWFUL, BUT it exists.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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fenixsemcinzas wrote:

Tehy have a mageblood.
It does not counts. Is impossbile to level with that

Okay you are clearly trolling so I'm stopping now lol. Literally clicked on 3 of the level 100s at random. Only 1 of the 3 was using a mageblood. But hey, feel free to keep adding on conditions until your point is "true". Do they need to be naked level 100 to prove the lie?

And re: blight damage...clearly you have no idea how blight works. Actual dps is in the millions. Potentially a boss-killer build.

You got a point. I will give you that.
I went out of the way a bit.
But I kept looking in the poe ninja.
Some link gems have nobody playing. Literally.
Riposte, other counter attack, 3 people too. No level 100. highest damage 400k
Reckoning 60k. 2 people
Destructive link only one person. Terrible build.
Frozen legion, is not even in the search tab. Could find some in past league. So no one this league
So, I was just exagerating and a bit naive, with my statements. But not entirely wrong

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jsuslak313 wrote:

For the record: "borrowed power" can only be true if the power is indeed "borrowed", that is, something taken from an initial mode and MOVED to another mode. When an item is deleted (sanctified relics) BEFORE being migrated to standard, it can't possibly BE "borrowed" from anywhere. You imply that league power is somehow "borrowed" from standard power, when this is just simply a false starting point.

I sure wish we could discuss this issue without the old P2W style semantics arguments. "its not P2W unless the game is PvP focused and you can buy direct power over other players". Ah yeah... anyone else remember 2010-2014 online game forums? The good ol days when P2W had a strict and literal definition, not really...

Borrowed power is when develpers put things into games that they never intend to be a part of the game in the long term, or they intend to immediately obsolete with the next big patch. Trickery, fooling the playerbase into being excited for new things that turn out to be temporary; disingenuous intent.

Its about good faith game design versus bad faith game design. Game design intended to make the game better, versus game design intended to trick you onto the hamster wheel with temporary/fake/disposable designs.

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alhazred70 wrote:

Its about good faith game design versus bad faith game design. Game design intended to make the game better, versus game design intended to trick you onto the hamster wheel with temporary/fake/disposable designs.

Since 2013, this game has been designed around temporary league play. It is not a "trick" to tempt people to play the league through unique power mechanics. By your definition, you should have never started playing this game because it was entirely designed "in bad faith", by your definition.

In fact, ANY game that focuses on temporary leagues (pretty much EVERY modern arpg nowadays) is acting in bad faith. Perhaps this is no longer the genre for you. I loved Diablo 2 and the previous generation of games too, with mostly unchanging base game and incredibly small "patches" every now and then and I continue to go back and play from time to time. But those days have long since changed, and it is time to start recognizing the NEW normal: temporary leagues with temporary power.

In reality, it is PROPER game design based around GGG's goals and focus. A seasonal game literally could not possibly exist if: 1) there wasn't a power temptation of the new mechanic and 2) there wasn't an understanding that the "temporary" power would go away. If it didn't go away, we end up with rampant power creep the likes of pre-3.14 which, if GGG didn't make those massive nerfs 3.14 - 3.18, would have rendered the game a joke. The creep already made the game kind of a joke by 3.13. And you are a ruthless, ssf player! You know this better than anyone else, because you have gravitated towards the hardest, scarcest possible settings the game has to offer.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Since 2013, this game has been designed around temporary league play. It is not a "trick" to tempt people to play the league through unique power mechanics. By your definition, you should have never started playing this game because it was entirely designed "in bad faith", by your definition.

You appear to remember less of the games history than you're pretending. I'll leave it at that. I've played since launch (not on this account if that statement is confusing) and followed the game since it was 4 guys in Chris' garage.

In any case until right around Sanctum all leagues were considered to have an honest shot at going core. EVEN HARVEST as crazy as that sounds, and it eventually did go core, and thats even crazier...

Anyway after Sanctum people who are paying attention noticed and started talking about how we (I was one of them) don't like this new precedent of borrowed power league design. Obviously hyper inflated balance points and dumb over the top powercreep that is 100% predictably not going core.

Again its about good faith game design versus bad faith. Also good faith arguing vs bad, as people have already repeatedly pointed at Sanctum and I think everyone who's arguing genuinely will concede.

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fenixsemcinzas wrote:

I remember GGG advertising once that "you can make a buid with any gem".
Can't think on a bigger lie.
The truth is that many gems never see the light of the day.
Not because, simply, there are better options.
Just because they're unplayable. You just can't enjoy the game with them. Can't progress in it, with them. Too weak. Some gems don't scale even with high investment, or if they do, is just not worth it. Because even with expensive itens, they're still weak. Too weak to properly play the game, even on it's easy, (not uber bossing), mode.
I'm not even asking to all gems to be equaly good. More playable gems would be enough. To cite some. Look at the state of puncture, sweep, (so much in the melee category),glacial hammer, counterattacks, links in general, blight, frozen legion... I don't think someone ever played conversion trap. Is just a novelty. The list still goes for quite a while.

You were also very mistaken about glacial hammer as well. I actually had a friend play that this league and ninja is full of them as well. Plus its added trans gem also got some use.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Since 2013, this game has been designed around temporary league play. It is not a "trick" to tempt people to play the league through unique power mechanics.

Some people do in fact forget that standard was only introduced to avoid the lose of temp league items, cause some people would just go all scree if stuff would go into the void instead of graveyard storage unite league.

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alhazred70 wrote:

Borrowed power is when develpers put things into games that they never intend to be a part of the game in the long term, or they intend to immediately obsolete with the next big patch. Trickery, fooling the playerbase into being excited for new things that turn out to be temporary; disingenuous intent.

jsus has his own idea of "borrowed power" and stubbornly clings on to it.

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Pashid wrote:

Some people do in fact forget that standard was only introduced to avoid the lose of temp league items, cause some people would just go all scree if stuff would go into the void instead of graveyard storage unite league.

POE is a diablo clone, chris and co were diablo fans. they improved the entire genre with their introduction of temp leagues.

standard has always been there. it was not some invention that they needed to introduce. in fact back during the day, me and my friends actually would have stayed away from POE if the game was void temp league only.

my name wouldnt be in poe credits if standard didnt exist.

Considering D2 items collecting and persistent MMOs I think it's pretty disingenuous to pretend standard was an afterthought. the first leagues were released as (paraphrasing) "ladder resets with beta tests of new mechanics before we put them into the permanent game". Void leagues of almost every event ever were to "protect the standard economy"

Again some folks seem to have less grasp of poe history than they think.

They figured out that the "temp leagues" were the main draw on hindsight standard was not some afterthought. Standard was the place that gave items permanence like D2 items. Chris says as much in his GDC talk.

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exsea wrote:

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alhazred70 wrote:

Borrowed power is when develpers put things into games that they never intend to be a part of the game in the long term, or they intend to immediately obsolete with the next big patch. Trickery, fooling the playerbase into being excited for new things that turn out to be temporary; disingenuous intent.

jsus has his own idea of "borrowed power" and stubbornly clings on to it.

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Pashid wrote:

Some people do in fact forget that standard was only introduced to avoid the lose of temp league items, cause some people would just go all scree if stuff would go into the void instead of graveyard storage unite league.

POE is a diablo clone, chris and co were diablo fans. they improved the entire genre with their introduction of temp leagues.

standard has always been there. it was not some invention that they needed to introduce. in fact back during the day, me and my friends actually would have stayed away from POE if the game was void temp league only.

my name wouldnt be in poe credits if standard didnt exist.

Agreed and agreed no one in 2011-2013 would ship a game with only 3 month emp leagues and talk about $700 bows being sold on eBay. Chris and the gang were jay ess pee enjoyers for fucks sake. That site and permanent items are why poe is so insanely trade focused.

To anyone trying to revise history remember some of us where here in beta.