Borrowed Power should not be the new standard / Predicament of standard
"Your definition of borrowed power is fine! My question just wasn’t about that. It was about the notion that your things could disappear being something you’d be concerned about “going forward”. I’m just wondering: why only going forward from now? Hasn’t it always been something Standard players should have been keeping in mind, since it has always been the case that league stuff isn’t guaranteed to stay? There’s no accusation here. |
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" sorry if i sounded antagonistic towards you then. i'd like to point out, standard players never ever had to worry about GGG taking things away from them until sanctum. sanctum's sanctified relics was the first time in GGG's almost a decade history of leagues that they actually poofed our items. i spent maybe 10-20 divines to enchant my sanc relic. GGG has never given standard players any reason to doubt that their efforts would be wasted. in all past content, synthesis, harvest etc even as OP as the items we crafted back then, they all transferred over to standard. our standard character could enjoy these gear as a result. it gave reason for standard players to go temp leagues. i actually bitched about this same topic but in a different way even back then. i m bringing it up again now and in more detail because affliction league came with a huge amount of player power. we have ascendencies, charms, bodies, tinctures. unlike previous leagues, this player power is significantly different from "core POE". charms/bodies/tinctures do not work without the relevant ascendency. hence giving reason legitimate concern of whether or not they will be retained into standard. the big difference between now and sanctum is that in sanctum chris actually did mention that sanc relics are not going core very early in league. but even then i resent GGG/chris for that. he did it on a podcast so there was NO official statement on any of GGG/POE official channels. specifically POE official website. when sanctum live FAQ popped up this info was not posted there. in fact, only near mid league or end of league did GGG actually address it and say that the sanctified relics are not going to standard and even then, it was on TWITTER. wtf. i dont have time to scour the internet and follow GGG on every single piece of social media. so when you say that it has always been an issue that standard players have to keep in the back of their mind, you have made the wrong assumption. we never did doubt ggg. we never had a reason to doubt ggg. all until sanctum. it changed the landscape so much that some of my guildies just up and quit the game. why? coz now everythings a big gamble. for example when crucible dropped. all of us were saying FUCK those weapon trees are gonna make us so much more powerful. then we were split. we did not know if we played in crucible whether or not the item would go standard or not. we were all guessing at that point. i can tell you it feels REALLY BAD. me and my gang, we play temp leagues for the sole purpose of enriching our standard characters. before sanctum, we looked at the potential league rewards. isit something worth our time rolling a new character for? if yes, then we dive in. is it something we could buy after the league end? if yes, then may be we skip the league. now we have a new layer to consider. is the gear/items we get in the league going to transfer to standard? every league after sanctum, this is always a big question mark. GGG is really tight lipped on the matter. its really infuriating. the charms in affliction, i spent divines to get em. if i know that they were going to be poofed at the end of the league i would most likely skip the league. currently all standard players are in the same predicament. if they dont play in a temp league they miss out potential powerful gear. but if they DO play temp league, theres NO MORE GUARANTEE that the items transfer to standard. [Removed by Support]
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I dont know seems like you should just be thankful there even is a permanent league to begin with.
Im guessing a lot of it comes down to keeping two separate versions of the game with enabled items or disabled items for balance changes done in temp league. And systems that have to be put in place for it. I cant think of any online progression game that does not have some version of this. Being "new expansion=new stuff, but old stuff can't be used". This is done for balancing reasons on temp league, otherwise we would have triple elevated crap back from ritual league, multi fractured bases, explody chests etc... It seems you might want to try offline single player games that dont receive expansions where you can keep outdated/old gear and use it. Mash the clean Last edited by Mashgesture#2912 on Mar 13, 2024, 4:13:06 AM
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"Doesn't "NO MORE GUARANTEE" imply there was a guarantee in the first place? It's my understanding that that isn't the case. Is that not right? Had GGG made a statement saying "We promise every league mechanic and item will always continue in Standard", or the like? Honest question; it's entirely possible I missed something like that early on and I am happy to be corrected on the matter. Because you speak of this pattern that had existed up to Sanctum, and I'm not arguing that the pattern didn't exist. I'm pointing out that a pattern is not a guarantee that the pattern will continue. So when you say "now everything's a gamble", I'm suggesting that it has always been a gamble. Perhaps it just didn't feel like a gamble to you earlier because you were 'on a winning streak', so to speak. I'm suggesting it might have saved some disappointment and some "bitching" if you were playing, all along, in the acknowledgment that league content wasn't guaranteed. Last edited by GusTheCrocodile#5954 on Mar 13, 2024, 4:57:35 AM
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" i find it amusing that i think you've been here for sometime and you seem to not know how diablo clones came to be. before POE, no diablo clone had "temp leagues/seasons". the closest we had was diablo 2 season resets. torchlight infinite is heavily influenced by poe. they adopted POE's league system where their STD league allows players to keep all their stuff earned from temp leagues. in fact even for POE, borrowed power is a relatively new concept (to POE) as it first appeared in sanctum which is quite recent. to say i should be thankful that standard exists, thats so damn condescending. POE started with standard being the default league. if you do not know diablo clone history. diablo clones typically are played with no temp league. people just farm stuff indefinitely. when GGG first introduced temp leagues, many of the older players such as myself totally ignored temp leagues. the intention of temp leagues were for GGG to test new league mechanics to later introduce them into STD to make STD have more content. temp leagues were basically beta testing grounds for stuff for STD. in fact GGG had to put a lot of effort to entire players to try temp leagues, this included MTX rewards as well as league exclusive gear. they even touted that if we got any special league exclusive gear in the league it will be retained in that form via legacy rolls. for my efforts i have a legacy void heart which has legacy mods making all my attacks bleed and poison. temp league enjoyers are a new breed of gamers. it seems that you are one of them. i have no quarrel with you but you should at least know the history of standard before you go around saying things like that. when you talk about balance i agree with you partially. i agree with you because, well, you have a point, things needs to be balanced. if a specific gear is overperforming it definitely should be nerfed/reworked. the reason why i dont agree with you 100% is because of GGG's original stance on STD. STD was touted as a place of permanence. for sure if the atlas or passive tree changes, then change will follow suit. people on STD understand enough that it is a required change. however, throughout POE's long history, STD is where all legacy gear go. legacy gear are timeless. GGG doesnt fuck with legacy gear/legacy mods. kaoms heart 1k life exists on std. abysus with 225 crit multi exists on std. can GGG retroactively change them? yes. they indeed can. in fact in recent years, GGG has been pretty merciless with doing whatever they want at the chagrin of STD players. any balance change is IMPORTANT. but important to who? its important to the new target market. POE evolved. Standard players used to be the target market. i used to be the main target. but now the amount of temp league enjoyers such as yourself has grown so much it may have overtaken STD at some point. i repeat the question, who is the balance important to? the answer is to temp league enjoyers. STD players tend to already have more than a handful of characters in the high 90's or even 100. they have so much wealth they could force 6L a random chestpiece found at the starting beach. creating a new character is a trivial affair as they are likely to have a buttload of leveling uniques. it is all trivial. what i am getting at? NEW gear should always be rebalanced. OLD gear that makes it's way to STD should not. the caveat is i actually would agree to GGG hard nerfing a mod if it was so obscenely broken that they needed to do it. let standard players have fun playing god. it doesnt hurt you in any way in your temp league does it? its that simple. [Removed by Support]
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" you brought up a very good point. at what point did GGG actually went out and guaranteed us that stuff on temp leagues would always make their way to STD? to be honest, we're talking about ancient history that is by now maybe more than at least 8 years ago? because of that, as much as i want to dig info to show you of GGG officially stating this, i reasonably can't. it would help my argument a huge lot if i can but i simply cant. at most i vaguely remember that back when temp leagues were pushed out, GGG did tout something along the lines of "experience new leagues in its full glory and gain the rewards, immortalizing them as they are within the league, earn powerful items in their best form before they are changed in later updates". and yeah you definitely should doubt what i say as its based of memory with zero evidence. the most i can say is, i played perandus league. i have a legacy voidheart which has 100% chance to bleed and poison. the very next league newer variants were nerfed to be around 30-50% rolls. legacy mods/variants exist. they exist for standard. they do not matter for temp leagues in any way. also, when did sanctum release? late 2022. there are what? 10? 20 leagues before sanctum? over 7 years of leagues and never once did our items get poofed. never once did GGG announced that our gear was gonna get poofed. sanctum is the first league to have our gear poofed and the first league where they announced that our gear (sanc relics) were not going standard. in fact AFTER sanctum, during CRUCIBLE, it was the very FIRST time that GGG made an announcement to reassure players that the crucible trees were going to standard. this is then repeated in TotA where GGG announced that the tattoos were going to std. ever wonder why they were compelled to do so? they never needed to specifically tell players that our exploits were going to standard before sanctum. they didnt need to because players somehow knew everything was going to std. as tho there was some sort of "guarantee". [Removed by Support]
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I would like to add after reading post before mine:
They will always say "whatever bro, free game, GGG can modify it as much as they want, don't like it - don't play it" What about my investment of time and purchases? I invest time and make purchases when game feels good for me. I choose this kind of genre specifically so my shit remains to play with later on. But GGG can at any time take a shit on whatever build we made. Or on the whole game. I don't invest for the game to become something else next league. I invest specifically for it to remain in the state that I enjoy. But what GGG does is it caters to one crowd for some time, then caters to another crowd for some time, rinse, repeat. The game wildly swings from casual to hardcore and in the end only GGG get what they want consistently, while different player type camps are left periodically lure-duped to spend when game swings their way only to be disappointed later on and for some reason bickering between themselves instead of calling out GGG for not being consistent. POE2 should be the ruthless vision experience and POE1 should be the zoom power fantasy sandbox to capture both audiences. I petition to return all the fun stuff that was removed or nerfed over the years back into POE1. Last edited by Bosscannon#3325 on Mar 13, 2024, 6:41:39 AM
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" Never played diablo. Played POE. From what I know about blizzard games like WoW which I have played. You dont get to keep old tier sets, Shadowlands covenant abilities, legendaries, etc... So I am guessing Diablo behaves in a similar way. Then again Diablo has nowhere near the ammount of depth/items/gameplay that POE has... probably across all of its games combined at this point. And their last game... well you can play that if you want! " Similar to above but a disgusting comparison to make to POE. Torchlight infinite is ... barely over a year old at this point, while POE is over a decade now. I would imagine you give it enough time, legacy items that are just stacking up in its version of standard will need to be trimmed. " Um.... Borrowed power existed in other leagues prior to sanctum. Go back to recombinators and tell me that multi fractured base items weren't borrowed power. Some of the craziest ish came out of this league. All temporary power. Or back to scourge league with tier 3 scourge items. Or close to when I started, the first iteration of Harvest. Probably the biggest version of borrowed power we ever had. " Sorry you feel that way. " Great, its 2024 now. A lot has changed. " Unfortunately you are in the extreme minority. And POE's player base has only increased ever since. It doesnt take a genius to figure out why little effort/thought is put into standard league. Just look at the end of temp league, noone is playing. They need to use this time to regroup and come up with something new and exciting. Of which standard is not. " Source please on this? " Congratulations " From what I see online, temporary leagues started in 2013, the same year the game launched. Not really a new breed of gamer at all there. And pretty consistent with how they wanted to design the game from the start. " In a game this complex there are too many strings to pluck that will end up screwing something else up, best to just wipe out everything that was added each league, and build from some form of base there. Would just create more problems than solve, and be way too much work. Im guessing this is what happened with alt gems. If it has some paired programming restrictions, like not as simple as turning something off and on, then it just needs to go. " Its their game, they can do what they want with their items. " Yea so does silly +30% spell suppression chests before they nerfed the base values a few leagues back. They did this because it was too easy to cap/get spell suppress cap. Whats your point? " Its their game, they can do what they want with their items. " I dont know when and if this ever was the case (see above source question), again temp leagues started the same year as launch. Seems time to move on from 2013 already, its 2024 now. " And more than a handful of broken items. Knowing they are broken. Shouldn't be surprised when they get taken away. Because again; Its their game, they can do what they want with their items. " Not saying it effects me at all. Just dont want time spent on a mode, going down who knows how many lines of code, that generates nothing for the company because someone thinks their items are theirs, when in fact they are not. If items need to go, they need to go. Dont worry new ones will come out. Happens every league. ----Dont forget to find the source on that league intention thing mentioned above. Mash the clean
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" well....this is not even CLOSE to true at all. Clearly you are biased because you lost something you invested heavily into....but almost every year there is something that is completely deleted from league to standard. Exalt / Divine switch, potion values, watchstones, onslaught weapons and gear, mana reservation EVERYTHING, beastcrafts, harvest crafts, etc. It is disingenuous or just plain wrong to say sanctified relics was the "first" time something was straight up deleted. In fact, I can't remember a single span of any time greater than a year that something in standard didn't just go "poof". Temporary leagues.....its in the dang name. TEMPORARY. Migrating items and characters to standard was a luxury, but certainly not a core focus of the game development. And frankly, it never was. And you are very much wrong about the "intention" behind temporary leagues. In nearly every interview in the last DECADE, CW and co. have explicitly stated that the vast majority of players are in temporary leagues, that is how they make all their money, and that is where all their design focus is. Even if they didn't outright TELL us this, we can SEE where their focus is through years and years of completely ignoring standard. The "temporary" league was never and has never ever been a "testing ground" for standard.....that is a line directly stolen from tinfoil hat conspiracy youtubers with absolutely no corroboration and plenty of proof to the contrary. Last edited by jsuslak313#7615 on Mar 13, 2024, 7:08:06 AM
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I think the problem with sanctified relics fundamentally is that they had an inventory slot that doesn't exist anymore.
Same thing with charms. Unless they make some part of affliction go core. If they took heist out of the game the trinket slot wouldn't exist anymore either. Crucible was the best borrowed power test they did since i started really playing the game as an addict in ultimatum. Being able to buff 2h melee weapons made it feel alright. The only bad part was that you had to self craft the weapon and anyone thats crafted a 2h melee weapon knows the pain unless you get dictators fractured off the ground on the right base. |
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