Overwhelm on enemies should not give 300% more damage against players

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Lonnie455Rich wrote:

The same thing happens to builds that run 90 max res on monsters with penetration, they have to shift ele to chaos, or mitigate it with eternal damnation.

Its really no different. Its a layer of defensive complication that you get better at as you learn.

Youre asking them to change the game and make it more simple. Plz no

That is a good point, but I did suggest that overwhelm could be treated similar to pen, where it's only possible to get pen in certain content that is supposed to be very hard or optional. Like bosses with avoidable abilities or delve areas that you can potentially go around.

Well then you would have to make a case to remove flask siphoner, since it rips pretty much every pathfinder that isn't just being a caveman.

There is a snowball effect. before you know it the only thing that can kill people in hc is ubers.

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Lonnie455Rich wrote:

Well then you would have to make a case to remove flask siphoner, since it rips pretty much every pathfinder that isn't just being a caveman.

There is a snowball effect. before you know it the only thing that can kill people in hc is Detonate Dead.

FTFY

They're changing dd im pretty sure.

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Lonnie455Rich wrote:

Well then you would have to make a case to remove flask siphoner, since it rips pretty much every pathfinder that isn't just being a caveman.

There is a snowball effect. before you know it the only thing that can kill people in hc is ubers.

I don't think a slippery slope argument can be applied here. That would assume GGG does not actually think through their changes and just bases them on popular opinions. Which I hope they don't. And I hope my arguments as why overwhelm is out of place is something I do hope they use in other aspects as well.

No mod in the game should represents 300% more damage in common situations. The only slippery might be the threshold of how much damage a mod should do, but I hope GGG has their own guidelines when designing these things.

The only problem with overwhelm is that it cant go negative when attacking a monster. There may be a table of the pdr of every monster, but it feels bad getting overwhelm anywhere when you arent really certain if its even doing anything. As opposed ot resistance penetration where its always dps if you dont have other res shenanagins.

You can see this is an issue by looking at how many melee phys builds people are playing besides boneshatter and earthshatter. Its a waste of time compared to converting and getting pen/phys as extra.

Ill take the death on a phys overwhelm monster if im not converting phys to ele anyday. my zerker will die to this or a degen eventually but it is what it is man.

When you say "No mod in the game should represent 300% more damage in common situations" its philosophy applies to so many more mods tho, and it does lead to the slippery slope Lonnie mentions.

Enraging? 40% damage + 25% action speed
Executioner? 20% damage for each 10% missing life (if you fully reserve your life that is 180% increased damage)
Lightning Walker? wooping 50% increased damage taken, which is multiplicative with other modifiers

And so on and so on..

The question is where will you draw the line, and how do you interpret mods that will appear in combination with other mods. At the end of the day you will not die to a single mod, but to a combination. I.e. overwhelm + extra physical damage.

Nothing is ever as easy as saying "this shouldn't exist", at least when it comes to the current balance

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ArtCrusade wrote:

When you say "No mod in the game should represent 300% more damage in common situations" its philosophy applies to so many more mods tho, and it does lead to the slippery slope Lonnie mentions.

Enraging? 40% damage + 25% action speed
Executioner? 20% damage for each 10% missing life (if you fully reserve your life that is 180% increased damage)
Lightning Walker? wooping 50% increased damage taken, which is multiplicative with other modifiers

And so on and so on..

The question is where will you draw the line, and how do you interpret mods that will appear in combination with other mods. At the end of the day you will not die to a single mod, but to a combination. I.e. overwhelm + extra physical damage.

Nothing is ever as easy as saying "this shouldn't exist", at least when it comes to the current balance

That is exactly what I said I think, the only slippery slope is where the threshold is. But I think it should be under 300% more damage. I'm not saying it should not exist either. Overwhelm can be reworked to perhaps work as reduced physical damage reduction and you could still get 90% mitigation if you can get the extra 30% that it removes (not sure if this is possible though which might be why it's in it's current state). Or be changed to only occur in places you can effectively avoid.

I don't think executioner exists anymore, it was changed to "cannot recover above 50%" iirc. Enraging is just 75% more damage, and 50% increased is 50% more. Nothing comes close to 300% more.

Not to mention that enraged monsters is easy to see, it's a temporary buff that is supposed to be scary. Unless you read overwhelm on the enemy there is no indication that it's there unless you also notice it dealing a lot of damage. Which is why I did make this post. On two characters this league overwhelm was something that took me by surprise a couple of times and when I did the math on why that would be, I realized the mod might be mechanically overtuned to adversely affect some builds and perhaps have a effect on build variety.

you want it to not be 300% more damage against the player? Then you get an additional defensive layer, or get no physical reduction.

Hey, with 0% physical reduction overwhelm is a whopping...0% more damage against you!

You complain about nothing, and keep trying to justify it with a statistic that only has meaning when you are mitigating most of the damage already.

Do you want everything in the game to be flat numbers instead of %'s so that people can actually achieve full godhood, or new and mid players just ultimately get sluaghtered even worse than they already do?

You keep yelling about "300% more", blah blah blah. But it isn't 300% more damage taken from the game developer's side (or really even from your side). It is 300% more, AFTER 90% less. You are missing a huge part of the equation, and you are doing it on purpose to justify your point because, like you said, you don't want build help and be told that you are missing other mitigation that is incredibly easy to slap on that erases that "300% more".

When push comes to shove, the game has to balance mods against ALL defenses simultaneously. What is 300% more to your personal build, is 0% to someone else. Or any number in between. It is only in YOUR unique scenario that you see it as 300% more damage, but you are also assuming that the 90% less is just a given, which it isn't

I said it earlier, but I have to reiterate: you are arguing a make-believe scenario that doesn't exist in the actual game