Experience loss driving some players away?
" That does suck :/ Ive had time warner kill me a few times, but whenever I die and its 0% my fault, I just think about other progress I made where I may have lost XP progress...maybe I found some decent orbs or gems or uniques...anything so I dont feel like it was completely wasted time. When it IS my fault, I tend to punish myself more than the game does, cause it meant I made a mistake, either in that specific situation or in my gear/passives. |
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" Yer don't take this the wrong way because i love this game' i Believe they have done an incredible job! but when i grind for 15% exp for a couple of hrs' to have it taken away because i die its just to frustrating! if i want to be penalized because i die i would play hardcore simple.. |
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POE's death penalty is just a lazy cut+paste from D2.
In D2 the death penalty made sense since it was _very_ easy to get a character to level 90+ in a short period of time, not so in POE, but for some reason they still think such a steep penalty makes the game 'harder'. Well no, it just halts character progression, pidgeon-holing under-geared players into playing the FOTM builds, since you're never going to be able to compensate for your lack of gear with levels (like in D2), so you have to play an easy [ranged] build instead. In turn this promotes an atmosphere of incest, since [smart] new players/casual gamers are never going to waste their time trying something new due to the ludicrous time investment it would take to experiment with something that won't work anyway. My character is effectively stuck at 79 due to a combination of 1. melee 2. desync-happy build and 3. no koams. I am currently following the pattern of 1. farm 3-5 bars worth of exp in maps/lunaris, 2. die to some stupidly over-tuned damage monsters 3. say 'well that was a waste of time' 4. log out. "there is no spoone" - The Matricks
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In PoE there is supposed to be a virtual level ceiling lower than the actual ceiling of 100. Theyve even said that 100 is supposed.to take a very very long time, and not be attained by most players. Playing at max level is boring, this way you always have something to work on, and while youre leveling in the 80s and 90s youre finding orbs and gear to help your other characters. Not to mention the satisfaction of facerolling.
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EXP LOSS IS NECESSARY.
WE'RE NOT BRUSHING DOLLS HERE! THIS GAME IS SERIOUS! I Thank GGG for that! I cannot support them at the moment but I will buy the game in october! Keep up the good work Bros! ;) |
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" This +1 ! GGG thank you for all the great things you are doing. You have combined every element of all other great Rpg's and joined them together as one Diamond, that will shine Forever.
This is coming straight from the heart <3 |
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" to be honest , devolving is a negative word which i would not apply. The reality is that gaming nowadays is now a main stream recreation which was not 20 -30 years ago. Back then gaming was for guys who like myself could spend 20-72 hours straight camping Plane of Fear in Everquest, guys who would obsessively play the secret Cow level in d2 for hours and hours on the end for that perfect pixel phat lew7s. Guys who could remember every little spell combo in Ultima and click on the rfresh button over and over again for Nightshade to spawn etc . POE xp penalty is " old school " and appeals to that ever shrinking percentage of gamers. The Vast vast majority are brought up on a diet of COD Railshooters and click for gratification games and that is just reality. POE will never come close to the success of D3. I hate the xp penalty as well but i also appreciate it and wont want POE to go the way of D3 etc . Long live indie devs who will give us games like POE via Kickstarter and for the record i do not intend to buy the next gen consoles nor any games by EA etc as frankly i got better things to do that to play their version of gaming. |
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" All players in any game should be penalized for dieing. It would be downright silly if we were rewarded for dieing! ;) Standard Forever Last edited by iamstryker#5952 on Jun 16, 2013, 6:18:35 AM
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If GGG wants to see any investors they will eliminate the XP penalty in default and fix HP nodes so life build are viable gain. It's a F2p game and who do you think spends money on character customization items? LOL It's simple business to created options to attract as many investors as they can and continue future development.
Last edited by Bushido74#7224 on Jun 16, 2013, 7:39:17 AM
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A lot of interesting feedback. Here's a few I'd like to address. Note there seems to be a bug where it’s not letting me post quotes from others (it’s saying “Only 3 quotes may be embedded within each other”) even when I try just 1-2 quotes. As such, I’ll do my own custom quotes.
Hzflank said: “Merciless exiles do not one shot. I will admit that I have dies 10 times to exiles, but 7 of those deaths cost me no xp (just levelled, died onece to viper strike exile in a1 merci, dies another 7 times before I killed it due to -60% chaos res). That are very risky to face and might require a couple of portals to refill flasks, but they do not one shot ever.” I was passing on information from a friend of mine who runs merciless maps in full groups. They could have been in 70+ maps, and based on the raise in difficulty I've seen soloing in merciless, I wouldn't be surprised if a Rogue Exile in 70+ could one shot certain builds (sporkers, etc). Evil_Dutch_Man said: “I'm wondering though, I'm only level 76 but I would expect by the time I'm ~85 to die far less often with the better gear/extra passives I have by then? Doesn't that balance the XP penalty?” Unfortunately not; as a matter of fact, because of the experience penalty, which drives people to pursue higher level maps, the chance of dying increases as the mobs become more difficult and progressing slows to a snail's crawl (e.g. getting new skill points and gear). Psyborg said: “The XP penalty makes you a better player. Fear is good. ... Without incentive to survive, or mistakes to prevent, there is no real learning curve and you will not improve.” I disagree. I could counter this statement and say without incentive to progress or mechanics added to slow progression, a player will not improve - as a player is always looking for the best way to progress. The core point here is you can address the core of both our statements while not "taking" from the player. A good example is the Maps system. You only have a limited number of portals allowing your return. If you die too often in the map, it closes to you forever. This is just one example of an alternative mechanic to prevent abuse (or re-running content a player can’t handle); and since maps are the only real way to progress end-game, we already have a control mechanism in-place. There's a huge difference between saying "you lost access to that map because you can’t handle it" and taking hours or even days of play effort from a player based on a single death. We want players to be adventurous and try new and risky/difficult things, but PoE currently penalizes that attempt with the penalty to the point of deterring players from playing altogether. LSN said: “XP penalty is strongly needed in this concept of game. Otherwise it would make the game boring as hell and there is no tense playing a map at all (just careless grinding as it is in d3).” I completely disagree. As a matter of fact, if the XP penalty was removed entirely, I think the player base would grow and nobody would quit. Remember, it takes a skilled dedicated gamer around 1,500 hours to reach level 100 (this is from HvR's run to 100). And that was running in groups the majority of the time (e.g. substantial XP bonus). That's 188 days playing 8 hours a day, or 376 days playing 4 hours a day. A casual gamer with a job/family, etc. will be lucky to play 4 hours a day. This means it would take a casual gamer roughly a year to reach max level - without any death penalty. And that's just on a single character - in a game where playing different builds is fun and enticed. This reaffirms my point. The death penalty is wholly useless as it already takes so much time to reach max level anyway. Psyborg said: “Really? Youre #5 in Anarchy. Obviously youre doing something right, I cant imagine you die that often...can it really be a dealbreaker for you?” and then keighbanger said: “Ye(s) don't take this the wrong way because i love this game' i Believe they have done an incredible job! but when i grind for 15% exp for a couple of hrs' to have it taken away because i die its just to frustrating! if i want to be penalized because i die i would play hardcore simple..” I know Keigh. He's a very easy going skilled player. We've spoken about the death penalty, and he’s in full agreement later on in the game, the penalty is too harsh. He was actually #2 on the ladder for awhile. I think one issue is many of the people in this thread have not reached L80+ and experienced the effects of the penalty. It’s so easy to die in Merciless to things like desynch, multiple crits in a row, a group of extra damage blue ranged mobs that fire at you in unison, or an exile that rushes you out of nowhere while in the middle of combat. We need to remember, this game is designed to kill us; surviving and progressing is the core purpose – but as I mentioned, taking the time a player has put into a game is psychologically harmful as it angers them. As mentioned above, one player thinks “fear is good”. Well, reward is better. The majority of people don’t play a game to be fearful (and with the new Rogue Exiles in Merciless, when you first encounter them, your initial reaction is of Fear, wondering if they’ll kill you before you can escape and plan on how to fight them – all because of the experience penalty). People play games to have fun and be rewarded. Zeekin said: “POE's death penalty is just a lazy cut+paste from D2.” Incorrect; in D2 you could regain 75% of your lost experience by returning to your body. PoE has no such option, so the penalty is absolute, and far harsher than D2. It also takes MUCH longer to reach max level in PoE than it does in D2, and gaining any viable amount of experience at 90+ requires expensive and rare high level maps. This is another reason the penalty is ridiculous. The simple fact is players are already penalized as they achieve high levels (80+) due to the experience penalty, and the only way to gain a reasonable amount of experience is through high level, expensive and rare maps. When a player runs out they're forced to go back to farm content that gives 1-2% experience to rebuild their map repository. Iamstryker said:”All players in any game should be penalized for dieing. It would be downright silly if we were rewarded for dieing! ;)” If the death penalty was removed entirely from Softcore, there’s no reward for dying; there’s just no experience penalty, and the penalty is knowing you were just killed by something and failed in combat… time for revenge! The inconvenience factor of dying to a mob is enough IMO, and given a death in a map means you lose a portal. As maps are the best end-game content for progress and item drops, this mechanic already addresses the issue. Here’s a thought as an alternative to completely removing the experience penalty. What if you could regain, say 75-90% of your experience by slaying the monster that killed you? That might be an interesting way to address the penalty – the mob that lands the killing blow gains a perm aura of “life force” that you can steal back; and it would stack. This way if you want to fight a boss or rogue exile and you die a few times, you can regain the majority of your lost experience by killing them… All that and a bag of chips! Last edited by Mooginator#1287 on Jun 16, 2013, 3:27:42 PM
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