Experience loss driving some players away?
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There has been a lot of good feedback here, but I'm still waiting for GGG to respond, especially given the feedback, some of which is encapsulated below.
" Correct. This angers players and causes them to reconsider progressing. I know it has for me. " This is a very important statement; people shouldn't leave a game because of a death punishment. As I mentioned, I cannot get my friends to play because they are put off by the death punishment. They were excited at first, but once they found out about the death punishment they said "no way." " A reaffirmation of what's been stated, and how I feel about the punishment. This is an issue. " This is another example why the current experience punishment system fails. At level 77, losing 15% experience is 2-3 maps for me, which is roughly an hour. And that's just at level 77. " IMO either works. Simply removing the punishment will work just fine. It takes so much time energy and effort to progress anyway (once you're 80+) the lack of a penalty won't affect things; it'll just remove pissing players off. However, I also agree there are alternatives for "something", and as stated, I believe a debuff that stacks per death may be an option (e.g. 5% less exp for 5 mins per death). Don't take from the player; instead remind them to be careful. " Reaffirming previous statements, I agree; casuals and HC players don't mix. I'd never play HC. Ever. I have NO interest in seeing all of my efforts disappear. Then again, the "Hardcore Group" is a vast minority compared to casual players, who if given the option, would prefer to play and focus on fun and progress rather than the challenge of losing it all. Regardless, offering a league that's true Softcore (everything Softcore is today with no XP loss on death) would work just fine. So would a stacking debuff penalty. There's no question the current punishment system both angers and drives players away. So, is there harm in adjusting it or removing it to prevent this negative impact? I think not. Quite the opposite, I think addressing the problem is necessary. I certainly would like to get my friends to play. Until the current punishment system is addressed, they will not, and the simple fact they won't even try this game solely because of the death punishment speaks for itself. All that and a bag of chips! Last edited by Mooginator#1287 on May 1, 2013, 5:12:20 PM
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" Let's also not forget Baal's "lag demons" (the last ones to spawn before the Worldstone Chamber). Exhilarating. |
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" None of that shit ruined the game unless you were a whiny bitch. You sound like one of the kids that I iFB'd in pk games. Last edited by TaKtiCz#5217 on May 1, 2013, 8:03:43 PM
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Don't care about exp loss. Desynch kinda sucks, but I dealt with it in D2 pk games without crying. Didn't lose exp to that, but it's one of the things worth dealing with when playing a superior game to the other newer ARPGs out there. Shit I can't even really complain atm I'm not even playing HC. Lol@ not playing a game cuz of exp loss. Hardcore gamer my ass.
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The biggest problem for me, at lv. 81, is that some deaths feel unavoidable, combined with the fact that the death penalty at high levels can be crippling and lead to a feeling that you've lost days or weeks worth of work, and can never progress. I don't mind a penalty for being reckless, but I die to chain-stunning charging rhoas, to one-shot physical reflect (I play a crit-damage EK), and to desynch/lag. The first I could deal with by being more cautious, the second can happen with mobs in water (aura hidden) or coming onscreen as I fire at a pack, things somewhat out of my control. The third just infuriates me and makes me question my desire to play.
I'd be most happy, I think, with an experience debt. While it was present, 75% of all xp earned went to pay off the xp debt, and the debt could never be more than the xp you'd obtained in a given level. Or some mechanic, any mechanic, where you feel like your work was worth something and couldn't be taken away in a moment's connection trouble. If I wanted that, I'd play hardcore. And sometimes I do (and did extensively in D2), but these days I usually just prefer challenging gameplay without massive death penalties. |
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" ^^^^^^ WHAT YOU SAID! If I were in charge ;-P I would: 1. modify the XP death penalty to cap at ~30-60m of play time of the average level 80 player. 2. change to XP debt. 3. allow in game currency to buy off that debt. Technically currency is a past time investment if you think about it, so that part is a bit like a distraction lolipop. Another possibility would be to allow SC players 1 "free" death per N calendar days. That sort of directly addresses the inevitable deaths. If it's your build, you'll be having those deaths more regularly than that. --C Last edited by Courageous#0687 on May 1, 2013, 8:36:34 PM
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" When you hit 80+ there´s no content for you. There´s no experience gain in the same level range like your char. When there would be level 80 zones(and i don´t mean maps) a death would be not a problem at all because of what i said. The only problem of xp lose now is based that there´s no content available at a set level and thus the feeling of a loss is "more" and also dsync deaths plays into this "i leave cuz of xp". What can never be lent or earned?
Somewhat, that devours everyone and everything: A tree that rush. A bird that sings. It eat bones and smite the hardest stones. Masticate every sword. Shatters every shrine. It defeat mighty kings and carry mountains on lightly wings. What am i? |
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LongWinded
First off, I just stumbled upon this thread a bit ago, and I did read all 28 pages thus far. I have played D2, both soft and hard, and have been around PoE long enough now that I feel I have enough knowledge and experience understand the many different points and feeling expressed in said 28 pages.
I first came on PoE January of last year. Granted there are many here that have been around longer, but a year and nearly a half opens ones eyes to several things that they once kept closed to. I have four PoE Closed Beta original accounts. One for forum usage and Default play (this one), one for Hardcore play, one for muling, and another that I never realized got a Closed Beta invite until after Open Beta hit. I also have my Alpha account, which does not get as much attention as it should. I have three characters I play regularly on Hardcore (4 that I am experimenting with, in addition) and two that I play on Default. Both my characters on Default have more play time than the three on Hardcore. I play Default when my wife plays, because she does not like the idea of having to reroll completely upon death. I have one character that I use to farm her currency and gear, and one that I play exclusively with her. Other than D2 and PoE, my RPG experience has been limited to Korean 'Holy Fuck That Took Forever' grind fest MMO's, not hack and slashes. The time spent playing these grind games has given a unique appreciation for the hatred of the XP penalty on death. Though, I will say this, as much as the time lost can suck with PoE, it is nothing compared to some of these Korean MMO's. ...that said, and after a good crack in the head from the wife for making my thoughts vocal to her, I do not believe the XP penalty should be degraded nor removed in any way. It is the one thing that keeps Default having any form of emotional relation to a death in Hardcore. Be that as it may, as per the subject of differing leagues with the option to change requirements, penalties, loot chances, etc... I have been waiting for custom leagues since I first stumbled upon PoE. And will play one exclusively after they are available if I can find something that fits my tastes more than the choices we have now. This is a feature that I think many are waiting upon and I can not wait to see how the 'My Dick Is Bigger Than Yours' forum wars change once this happens. Hardcore may be the elite now, but that very well could change once other leagues are available. Imagine if a new league comes around that is Hardcore Turbo with Multiple Projectile Mobs that deal 75% Extra Damage as Chaos and Players have a 100% Resistance Penalty across the board. The current Hardcore would have just become a lower food chain option. Where will these flame wars head then? As they say, what comes around... Now, do not take that the wrong way, I do not favor Default. I simply spend more time playing there with my wife than I do solo in Hardcore to avoid listening to the whining about her playing alone ... /another crack in the head However, I do not look down on Default either. Nor do I hold myself to a higher standard as a Hardcore player, as many others seem all too ready to do.
TL;DR
Nobody here is above anyone else. And those who consider themselves elite will more than likely not be so once differing leagues are available. We all need to remember such things before offering such arrogant and cold shoulder responses to other's who support the game just as we do, albiet financial support or communal support.
However, the death penalty needs to be left alone, regardless of how much it can suck some times. Hopefully, when new leagues come along, they come with an option to customize it to the needs of smaller groups. If so, then it will be time to set things as one sees fit. In the mean time, consider it all nothing more than a learning curve. Both Hardcore and Default are just stepping stones for many of us as we await the league options we truly seek. ...narf Last edited by SqueakyToyOfTerror#0940 on May 1, 2013, 10:13:59 PM
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There's nothing magical about 15%. The death penalty has a game related purpose. There is nothing at all to say that this purpose cannot be fulfilled by various variations on a theme.
@Spysong: my assumption is that level 100 will be the max level for quite a long time. They will therefor likely be making the 20 levels from 80 to 100 extremely slow for that time. Last edited by Courageous#0687 on May 1, 2013, 10:30:04 PM
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" Actually, it doesn't. Not a single person has provided any details rationalizing why the penalty serves any legitimate purpose. This is another reason why games have dropped similar punishments. It doesn't balance any progression, economy, or other mechanics of the game. While some people may think it's purpose is to make it difficult to achieve maximum level, there's already a very tough infrastructure put in place to address that; the maps system, and the difficulty in securing and running high level maps. There are already enough challenges built into the game relative to character progression. The experience loss punishment serves no legitimate purpose of any kind. All that and a bag of chips!
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