Experience loss driving some players away?

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Xavderion wrote:

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tobes111 wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

This thread is hilarious, people are actually expecting to progress to 100 even though they are playing like idiots and dying all the time? The exp penalty is already very soft, even in the mid 90s where exp requirements are hilarious you only lose like ~12 hours of exp time per death.

so you're saying if you die due to desync, it's 100% your fault?

Lol.

I died to desync once. And I still could've avoided it, I just played too carelessly. Don't use desync as an excuse.

Adn you represent 100% of the community?

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tobes111 wrote:

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FrodoFraggins wrote:

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mkmaddage wrote:

They should rename the game "Path of Futile" and just randomly delete and ban accounts every few days so they achieve their goal of driving people away quicker.

But seriously, I think they deserve SOME respect for spending 6 years of their lives and millions of friend's and investor's money to create the greatest troll in gaming history! I'd love to be there to enjoy the hilarious atmosphere as they close down their offices, declare bankruptcy and set off to find jobs after the final stages of this epic troll project come to a close. It'll all be worth it - all that effort and investment - just to have people join their game in droves and then quit!

Cool story bro.

Harsh.

I don't want them to shut down. But damn do I hate most of their design decisions other than the massive skill tree. It takes a lot for me to give money to a company that designs their revenue around store items. Give me a polished, fun ARPG and I'll gladly pay a fair one time price to play the game.

At least they aren't going the Marvel Heroes overpriced store route.

Harsh but true.

Too bad GGG will fail to listen to the community and wonder why people are leaving.

I think they made their choices and gambled. Blizzard did the same thing but they sold a ton of boxes of D3 thanks to D2.

I think it's too late for them to make drastic changes/fixes even if they really wanted to.

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tobes111 wrote:

Adn you represent 100% of the community?

And you are making false and incoherent assumptions?

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Xavderion wrote:

This thread is hilarious, people are actually expecting to progress to 100 even though they are playing like idiots and dying all the time? The exp penalty is already very soft, even in the mid 90s where exp requirements are hilarious you only lose like ~12 hours of exp time per death.

only 12 hours!? LOL, can't tell if sarcasm or not.

Hmm. Managed to get several characters to end game maps. 2 of which didn't even have over 4k hp. Rarely died, when I did, it was my fault for sure.

Exp penalty is fine.

Oh darn it! I love this wall of complaiining about the experience loss.

If you are really annoyed by the fact that you are losing experience, how many times do you actually die? I mean, it's a VERY big factor and It seems people aren't saying how many times they died so far. Is it 10 times? 20? 50? 100 or even higher?

If you die ALOT of times, there is something wrong with your character: it's simply not good enough for the content you are playing. As well, you lack knowledge about how the game works.

When I first started playing PoE last year in closed beta, it took me weeks to get to level 60. I died over 80 times. I had about 2000+ health, I couldn't do maps. So I started farming fellshrine and whatnot. Still died every level andt just could not progress. After about 6days or something /played time I called it done at level 63. I made some lower characters till the 20's and after a week I stopped playing. Untill a few months later. I decided to pick up PoE again and made new builds. Everytime to 60 and tried to improve and every time the same single problem: I could not progress because of the experience loss and felt so damn angry, just like most QQ and whining all over here.

Now I'm here, a year later. Not alone the fact that the 15% experience loss does matter, I learned so much from it. It made me more combat aware, more quickly and precisely on how to approach certain things, may it be a hard boss with hard mods, or a new build, or simply trying to min/max your resistance, health, damage and whatnot.

I am nowhere near a good player, but even I can level a single character to level 40~50 in a single day with about 1~5 deaths or something and eventually get it to 70+ in matter of days. Whereas my first builds took litteritly 20 times TWENTY TIMES as longer, just because I sucked at the game.

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Mooginator wrote:

Here's another example of the problem the penalty creates. As soon as I made level 72, I went for Piety (I only had barracks waypoint). Fighting my way to Piety got me around 30% of my experience for level (this was starting from Barracks waypoint). Died twice doing Piety solo, but got her.

Back to 0%.

I ran docks to get from 71-72 so I'm a bit burned out on it. Decided to do a Dried Lake map. Slow undead. Perfect and easy for a LA Ranger. Dropped the boss without a problem. Was getting some descent experience; was around the 15% mark when I was nearly done with the map.

BAM. Dead. Even now as I write this, no idea how. 3200 health, was full, fighting. Never saw what got me (there weren't any insta-hit mobs). Didn't notice Desynch. Went back and killed mobs without taking a single hit. Regardless, it was a BS death I couldn't even pinpoint.

Back to 0%.

Finished map. Had about 2% when done. So, getting to piety and doing the map was around an hour of gameplay experience. All gone.

I got crap items from Piety, and nothing good from the map. Overall, it was a wasted experience (save the 2 points from completing the quest), and left me irritated; because if I don't get any drops, I can only benefit from the experience (not counting the one time quest). If I don't get any experience or drops, the entire endeavor is a failure.

This is the sort of problem the experience penalty system creates. People play these games to progress. To build. To obtain rewards. I haven't played a game that takes your experience away in a LONG time (5+ years), and feel the risk factor is now overtaking the fun factor, especially as each level I make causes the 15% cost of experience per death to be greater and greater, yet the game drives you to do harder and harder content to obtain experience and pursue better gear. The game pushes you to die.

There is a fine line between fun challenge and stress challenge. I certainly hope the goal of PoE is to serve a fun challenge to its player base.

Ultimately, the current penalty system is not a good one. It angers players by causing a complete loss of gaming experience (e.g. if you get no drops after losing experience you have nothing to show for your gameplay), endorses a dated mechanic that other games have already figured out is unnecessary, and serves no legitimate purpose.

Recently I made a new cleave build and got to 78 in about two weeks of easily playing. The build felt VERY strong to me as I never even died in maps at that point. I saw this unique map from crypts ( http://en.pathofexilewiki.com/wiki/The_Coward%27s_Trial ). I gave it my best shot and did a last check if my gear was alright and whatnot. When I started the map, it was fairly hard, but still managable. It felt so great. Untill I did the last encounter;
After I killed waves and waves and WAVES of monsters, the end boss revived every single monster in that room, resulting in an fps drop to about 1~5 fps where I died instantly short after that happend. Well "GODDAMNIT" and got pissed and tried again only to find out that the room is filled with 50+ skeletons affected by increased crit, crit damage, frenzy charge to allies on kill, immune curse, faster attack, faster movement and on top of that, they got instantly revived after I tried to kill them. I lost about 45% on that map (at level 78) and freaked out of how much angry I was and stopped playing that day. But what? I just went playing on next morning and got my experience back, 2 days later I almost hit 80.


The experience loss is fine. If you cannot afford to die, you have to take a second look at your build and gear rather then complaining on the forums of how much time you lost, how annoying it is, that it's so useless and whatnot. No, it is YOU that caused it, but you don't understand what caused it. That is what GGG is aiming for, to make good players out of bad players.

I have been there, done that. I got better and I tell you to suck it up and keep improving in your own skill, even with a limited time frame it is possible. If you fail to see this point, I am gladly to say that there are MANY other games that do not follow this approach and does not tries to make you better, but rather give an illusion on how good you actually are after completing the game.


TL;DR: No, just no, just read it.

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mkmaddage wrote:

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e7ang wrote:

Why not just create a third league with no penalty at all? Really what's the harm in having multiple options on how to play. Options are good thing imo.

What's the harm? No harm to those who think an entertainment product should have no soul. Cost/resource considerations aside, there's theoretically 'no harm' in changing all the [insert own example here] zerg from SC2 to fluffy bunnies that ADD health instead of taking it away because some people find the creator's version too scary; the 'harm' I see is that the creator's original version is utterly shat on and their creative vision is diluted to weak watered down urine. When I go to watch a video of the game online I will see fluffy bunnies shitting rainbows and buffing their 'enemy' and have NO IDEA what the original intent of the designer was. I won't see the game as challenging or interesting and I'd wonder what group of dickheads decided to make a game, call it 'hardcore', and make it total faceroll.

The developers have been absolutely clear about their vision for a game where, for once, we don't play do-gooder heroes out to save the world - it's about being completely out for yourself in a very unfair world. All the systems in the game support this approach - the original FFA loot system (also poisoned by casual whiners so far), the bandit PVP event, etc. etc. and the experience loss system.
/blather

In the end, I think GGG will be forced by their investors or whoever is actually keeping them afloat, to casualise the game some more so y'all may get your wish anyway. The way of the world is to expect something for little to no effort and without 'punishment' for mistakes. There are a MILLION games which do this for you - why make the few that try to be different, the same? Sad...

if they do end up making the game much easier ill quit and im sure many more people will this game is not meant for people that want a cakewalk. SO i dont understand why they are trying to ruin our game

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Ryudozidian wrote:

I'm not seeing the big deal here. I remember the XP loss in the EQ days and people lived with it just fine. Hell I think you could even loose levels in EQ if you got really careless, but it's been so long since I played EQ that I can't quite remember for sure. Either way, is it frustrating? Yes! It's supposed to be, it makes us think a bit before going back out and loosing more XP. There has to be a good penalty for dying in these games, if there weren't everyone would just Zerg everything till they got to the next area. If this is possible, and yes I know you can throw up a TP and basically do this anyway, then why think anything through at all? That's the point of harsh penalties (though I personally don't find this one so harsh).

That's my opinion, I'm sure I will get flamed for it by someone. Lol

The thing is the media and society has molded into the masses a everyone deserves everything type of mentality, people dont want to work for what they have, they want everything given to them with as less effort from their part. And until this carebear everyone deserves the same ammount despite their effort mindset exists were fucked.

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Mooginator wrote:

And yet another. Was doing a L66 dungeon with my level 73 LA ranger. Was going through the rooms; all is going well. I threw two volleys into a room with new mobs - unknown to me - blackguard elites...

2 shots. BAM. Dead from full health. Never saw it coming.

Amidst the whining, this is a valid complaint. But this has less to do with xp loss and more to do with how broken some of the enemy mechanics (i.e. lightning thorns) are.

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realatomicpanda wrote:

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Mooginator wrote:

And yet another. Was doing a L66 dungeon with my level 73 LA ranger. Was going through the rooms; all is going well. I threw two volleys into a room with new mobs - unknown to me - blackguard elites...

2 shots. BAM. Dead from full health. Never saw it coming.

Amidst the whining, this is a valid complaint. But this has less to do with xp loss and more to do with how broken some of the enemy mechanics (i.e. lightning thorns) are.

A few counters to avoid that:

-Granite flask
-Enough base armour
-Curse before entering room
-Decoy or any other totem
-Get more health/ES
-Max tier flasks/potions & quality
-Resistance

So basicly: curse -> totem -> pre-pot -> go in and wtfpwn them. Depending on the situation ofcourse.

Can you elobrate what the valid complain here is? His health is 3200, probebly no granite flask on, no curse, no totem... yea then shit will happen.

I got the same thing, but with me is whenever I want to take something to drink, I keep moving with my mouse -> I see charges towards me so I have the few other options:

-Spill my drink over my desk, keyboard and pants, but saving my character's live and own the crap out of them while the juice is dripping down on the floor only to get mad afterwards
-Die honourable and accept the fact that I played like a moron and shouldn't zerging in with 1 hand like an idiot and scream like an idiot "GODDAMNIT".


That is the problem I have with dieing. Oh and I enjoy it even! Now, suck the dieing up already. It seems the 15% exp loss is not really the problem. It lies within their build, gear and skill (mostly awareness & knowledge). It probebly sucks. The people who hate the experience loss aren't the ones that die once in a while, but the ones who die perhaps multiple times per level.