Feels so awful to play melee in this game :(

"

BrettLee wrote:

Spoiler

OP's build, Level 93 trade league
-1 mod weapon
-no life roll on 5 pieces of equipment (excluding weapon),
-3k life (2.7k with precision reserved, this is with a level 20 CWDT which requires 3272 damage taken to trigger)
-armour is good
-76/75/75 res and nothing to assist against elemental damage (noting low life pool and armour is not high enough for unbreakable)
-8k max phys hit with 14k max ele hit with flasks and molten shell off.

You made no effort to build your character properly and somehow your gear is worse than day 1 SSF players.

-spend 50-100c and get a 600+ pdps weapon, +50% more DPS
-take the +max res nodes and 2 x +1 max res masteries
-replace all gear without life rolls. These should cost nothing

Spoiler

Alkaizer's build this league from Day 1 at level 93 has a 560 dps weapon (there are other players in SSF and HC SSF with more), 4.8k life, 15k max phys hit and 45k max ele hit taken - again with molten shell and flasks off.

Boneshatter has great map clear and is tanky when built properly. 4 of the first 5 players to each level 100 in HC SSF were playing melee (3 x bone shatter including 2 on juggernaut and 1 x shield crush). Its one of the most meta skill across trade, SSF and HC leagues and races.

Melee has its issues for sure, but that is not what is holding you back

lmao

I think, you are right, and sometimes I have the same issue thatI am tired of "whining" and the slap them and so. But I never "lmao" - I think thats to rude. But it is just me.

I will try to do what I suggest you to do, but sometimes I tilt (normally at the forum or at the sandspitters) "too".

I assume all is correct and then you would have explained it in a proper why, because at the end of the day it would be better if the communication reached the one it was posted to instead of having a middle finger recfecting it. But I do understand the other side when you read 80 percent is this "problem" and trust when when I wanted to write - but that message would do no good.

Then, yes, you do have the constructive part in the middle - but all of this - is doable without spending 600c. I don't know if it was softcore standard, then 600c is maybe like 10 transmutation for me. The day I have 600c here is not even imagible for me. But suddenly it just happening. I never read other build, or farming strats and so, I play my character and everything is an adventure but trying to make the best out of that character.

So I agree with you, but ask yourself, was the purpose to get the poster to understand and develop, or was it that other read it that could understand and so, or (I hope not) was it for you to shine and laugh? I normally end up in that middle section, probably speaking to death ears. But sometimes I write just because Im tired of all bs written and its not good, exspecially when hitting someone serious just being unlucky to post when I just read a lot of crap that wouldend up somewhere else.

Lets hunt with Einhar now!

"

sidtherat wrote:

and the cycle continues

'melee is fine' say people who conveniently play anything but melee :)


melee is anything BUT fine, people who say otherwise are invited to actually PLAY it and share their experience.

melee is fine if you have extremely low standards
melee is fine if you have ~unlimited budget
melee is fine if you dont care about ubers
melee is fine if you dont care about sanctum
melee is fine if you are comfortable with playing one skill
melee is fine if you havent tried anything else

the list goes on


Boneshatter is currently the only skill that actually can be compared with level-based skills when it comes to bang-per-buck. Boneshatter (Divergent ofc) has explosive scaling from one stat (attack speed) - just like spells who scale on +gems

sadly GGG will nerf Boneshatter rather than actually trying and boosting numbers on melee skills.

it is all about damage. and melee has none. exceptions like Boneshatter or shield skills dont change the picture - these skills (along with Trauma Support) scale like spells and require half of the investments.
once that resources are free to be used on defences and utility - yes, then melee is fine. but unless you use the very few skills that actually deal damage without gross investments you have to chose: damage or survivability, you just cannot have both. and POE is a game where damage == survivability, so you end up with melee that is less tanky than a witch draped in rags


there is a reason why pretty much every melee build showcase ends up with 'just pretend ubers do not exist and the build is great' copout.

Spoiler

-spend 50-100c and get a 600+ pdps weapon, +50% more DPS

+50% sounds cool once the base is big enough. spells might enjoy 50%, melee needs 300%..

What is melee and what is not? I think that line is all but strict to one place dividing things. Thats because when going with a 2H axe and it adds spell damage because of a gem. It that melee? Is it enough having a daggar in both hands and so on ...

And even if you are right - then I would say that maybe, or maybe mot, should be some kind of "true hardcore" melee that can have a really challenging journey while another melee could be quite easy.

The freedom (I never give up on this, and soon I think this the goal I have, to get people to understand about freedom of choices.

People "never" complain it is hard to play a low league team in Football Manager, and then say it is impossible to win Champions League with that team. That is because it is a hell of a challenge managing crappy teams there, and there is nothing wrong with the balance because of that. The people who just wanna put two hours in playing every week, choose Manchester City instead and you will hopefully get through a couple of seasons and you have quite "big chances" winning CL.

But here (at this game) we think all classes, all nodes and everthing should be balanced. The outcome of that is - it doesnt matter what path you go, what gems or anything you chose, it is 100 percent perfectly balanced. Then I would suggest PubG instead. That is just out of character skill (and a tiny bit of luck - like everything in life).

See the potential in this game, don't make it easier without reasons (because I don't say it not need any changes). The one wanna play melee in a certain way but only can afford two huours a week is at the wrong place (or has to go a straight build path, maybe)!

There may be a bit (or more) true in your post, I don't know - and I don't care about the thing (I care about what you wrote but will not look into it deeper than that) either.

I will say like this. I have no clue when people takling about builds. But it has given me a no, "never gonna play" and thats a bit sad. Those RF or BS is out of question. It seems like those are the most normal builds in guide and thats why people play them (I read chat and see things in forum even if not reading all). Those people (my prejudices) can't play the game, don't like to play the game from thier heart, or have no time for any thinking, and will hate struggling. And they have not spent one hour at the skill tree, and they cant solve the slighest problem in the game when it will "get hard". It's like me buying an old car that is not working, but a friend of mine makes it work. When I have driven a bit and it brokes, then I will be standing there til someone picks me up - I would not even have a thought what the problem could be. But I am not complaining that the car was built in a wrong way.

And I hope you had read (even if 50% could be counted as nonsense) but I would be glad if you could tell what exactly is the problem if something is "neerfed" as "all" people call everything today. I know it will not be a selfrunning killing all character with no out of character skills!

What if the balance in the end are totally balanced? Not every single part like a lot of you mix up. (See 10 000 cans infront of you. They could be put on a big "wood circle" floating in water, that is divided in five or ten parts. You can place the cans in infinitive ways not to make that floating wood to fall, or the cans to fall. The mob need another one and in every part there should be the same amount of power and defences, but ten cans on eachother is strong but then you cant put a lot of shorter towers in same area, limit would be maybe 1 000 cans in every area. And that area is maybe life, or dps, or resistance, or ... Both of this will be floating, but looks totally different. Where cans close to edge are more powerfull offensive, but less defensive, because those cans will fall easier if 20 on top of each other. The sum is that they are balanced but look so different. It is the same as everything in this game. They may not stand on the same places all people wish. Worst would be if all cans are standing alone beside eachother with no height at all, and with no space left fore more cans. That is a bad balance because everything will be the same, but it is 100% balanced exactly (not in millimeters ofc). But imagine a totally crazy build at your image. That monster oneshotting you is maybe 25 cans tall but alone at the edge on that side, probably force us to make a strong defensive when facing, and see what weakness that mob has, and try winnning in that way. If that mob alone had 1 000 can as tower, the dps would be huger than huge, but then a tine raging spirit alone fast as speed of light will kill it directly - and the range and casting time makes it doable f.ex.)

Sorry for a long (text here)! I think most of people (count you in this group if you want or not, your choice) wants that boring wood plate. I hope you, or another understand and see what I mean.

Balance is not just one true picture - and the only one - thing! Balance are infinite, and talkig about balance, then you can't just choose a few parts (like "all people" do). Count it all. Not that tower against a another tower. They will never be balanced eachother, as 400 life vs 8 000 dps.

Have nice week, job (or not a job)!

"

BrettLee wrote:

OP's build, Level 93 trade league
-1 mod weapon
-no life roll on 5 pieces of equipment (excluding weapon),
-3k life (2.7k with precision reserved, this is with a level 20 CWDT which requires 3272 damage taken to trigger)
-armour is good
-76/75/75 res and nothing to assist against elemental damage (noting low life pool and armour is not high enough for unbreakable)
-8k max phys hit with 14k max ele hit with flasks and molten shell off.

You made no effort to build your character properly and somehow your gear is worse than day 1 SSF players.

-spend 50-100c and get a 600+ pdps weapon, +50% more DPS
-take the +max res nodes and 2 x +1 max res masteries
-replace all gear without life rolls. These should cost nothing

Alkaizer's build this league from Day 1 at level 93 has a 560 dps weapon (there are other players in SSF and HC SSF with more), 4.8k life, 15k max phys hit and 45k max ele hit taken - again with molten shell and flasks off.

Boneshatter has great map clear and is tanky when built properly. 4 of the first 5 players to each level 100 in HC SSF were playing melee (3 x bone shatter including 2 on juggernaut and 1 x shield crush). Its one of the most meta skill across trade, SSF and HC leagues and races.

Melee has its issues for sure, but that is not what is holding you back lmao

I'm not talking about my build, its not perfect and don't even is starting to work since every item i need to get stronger is now 7 divine above minimum.

But i played a deadeye lightin arrow and with less than 50 chaos orb i was able to put 3M dps, i already spend 5 divines in my juggernaut and the return is really slow.


Playing ranged is far easy, i can easily ignore 90% of the mechanics of the game easily.

My experience playing melee since its my first league is.

To get any closer of a ranged build i have to spend way more than any ranged build. and its full of gimmicks, tricks to work at 100%

My Lightning arrow build i just need to press 2 buttons to hit 3m dps

My boneshatter jugg need way way more income to work as close as need to cast everytime 2 times of after 10 seconds totems that mighty get one shotet by any monster,

I first build a 4700 life jugg, max res, good armor, was getting one shoted and damage was really low.

Then i went to 3700 life jug, hit 1,5m dps, still got one shot by monsters anyway.

The problem is risk, with deadeye lightning arrow i can clear a map in less than 2 minutes and explode the boss really fast without even being hit.

Boneshatter jugg my experience is, if the enemy don't get killed in the first hit and if it cause any ammount of damage i m probrably dead,

I already seen a tom of build of boneshatter and all then to work fine i need to spend almost 6 times more to just works, with all dissavantages.

So to make a melee build viable i have to play at disavantage, spend more, cast point on armor, cast a lot of points on life and pray that someone will sell a good equipment or try to get lucky and craft one.

I'm not the best player by far but half of my points i spend on the tree feels useless, i beat all the bosses until now with jugg and in the mid of fight i could only think, this fight would be really easy in a ranged class, the boss would have even chance.


The problem is if i have to spend more to make a thing work just the half of efficiency of any ranged build is it balanced?


"but you can facetank any bosses in game after you spend 900 divines"

Ranged players are killing bosses in less than 4 seconds and they don't need half of the bullshit i need.

Aside from this thread being completely derailed, I thought I'd add my 2c.

I agree with the original poster that melee suffers a lot in this game.

As for Poe.ninja, set it to week 1, and then restrict it to level 100. Guess what... 4% righteous fire, 6% boneshatter (including divergent). So 10% of players using a 'melee' skill are keeping pace with the other skills. You can check other days and it's fairly consistent.

Some difficulties with melee:
- most melee skills require you to stop moving and spam attacks. This is inherently more vulnerable than many other abilities - eg. dots, arrow rains, minions, totems, etc.
- most melee skills require you to be close to the target. There are a lot of auras, bursts, shotgun-type mechanics and corpse explosions that one-shot if you are close, particularly since archnemesis.
- the defensive requirements of melee are higher since a large number of the mobs in the game hit only in melee.
- the melee hit requirements ties up stats/resources that other builds don't have to invest.
- most melee skills do not 'screen clear', chain, or kill off the screen - this results in more incoming damage and slower clear speeds.
- there are numerous ground effects that mobs can stand in which melee have to play around, while ranged can just stand in a safe patch.
- melee gear seems to be some combination of rarer, more specific, or more difficult to craft.
- on top of all that, melee skills tend to scale worse for overall damage.
- Melee builds require the totem support for viable dps, which is lame. Stopping to cast down a couple totems just doesn't feel good. A well optimized "1-button" melee build trying to kill a tanky mob or a boss might actually need to use anc warchief, anc protector, berserk, bloodrage, vaal haste and vaal grace. Then try to kill it...and replace your totems every time they die - which is every few seconds in most content where you need their damage.

It's not that it isn't viable to play - it's that it's more investment for less reward.

Of course, I'm not good at the game, so.... /shrug.

"

aldrimus wrote:

Aside from this thread being completely derailed, I thought I'd add my 2c.

I agree with the original poster that melee suffers a lot in this game.

As for Poe.ninja, set it to week 1, and then restrict it to level 100. Guess what... 4% righteous fire, 6% boneshatter (including divergent). So 10% of players using a 'melee' skill are keeping pace with the other skills. You can check other days and it's fairly consistent.

Some difficulties with melee:
- most melee skills require you to stop moving and spam attacks. This is inherently more vulnerable than many other abilities - eg. dots, arrow rains, minions, totems, etc.
- most melee skills require you to be close to the target. There are a lot of auras, bursts, shotgun-type mechanics and corpse explosions that one-shot if you are close, particularly since archnemesis.
- the defensive requirements of melee are higher since a large number of the mobs in the game hit only in melee.
- the melee hit requirements ties up stats/resources that other builds don't have to invest.
- most melee skills do not 'screen clear', chain, or kill off the screen - this results in more incoming damage and slower clear speeds.
- there are numerous ground effects that mobs can stand in which melee have to play around, while ranged can just stand in a safe patch.
- melee gear seems to be some combination of rarer, more specific, or more difficult to craft.
- on top of all that, melee skills tend to scale worse for overall damage.

It's not that it isn't viable to play - it's that it's more investment for less reward.

Of course, I'm not good at the game, so.... /shrug.

+1

And why some melee physical skills do even cost mana? i'm just winging a weapon around lol.

People who says melee is really good, i've never seen then playing melee.

How about to make some monster have some kind of shield against ranged projectiles? make then reflect some bullets back and watch ranged players complain about they die a lot cause they never needs to build any kind of protection for their builds to acctualy works.

"

HunterDIII wrote:

Spoiler

"

BrettLee wrote:

OP's build, Level 93 trade league
-1 mod weapon
-no life roll on 5 pieces of equipment (excluding weapon),
-3k life (2.7k with precision reserved, this is with a level 20 CWDT which requires 3272 damage taken to trigger)
-armour is good
-76/75/75 res and nothing to assist against elemental damage (noting low life pool and armour is not high enough for unbreakable)
-8k max phys hit with 14k max ele hit with flasks and molten shell off.

You made no effort to build your character properly and somehow your gear is worse than day 1 SSF players.

-spend 50-100c and get a 600+ pdps weapon, +50% more DPS
-take the +max res nodes and 2 x +1 max res masteries
-replace all gear without life rolls. These should cost nothing

Alkaizer's build this league from Day 1 at level 93 has a 560 dps weapon (there are other players in SSF and HC SSF with more), 4.8k life, 15k max phys hit and 45k max ele hit taken - again with molten shell and flasks off.

Boneshatter has great map clear and is tanky when built properly. 4 of the first 5 players to each level 100 in HC SSF were playing melee (3 x bone shatter including 2 on juggernaut and 1 x shield crush). Its one of the most meta skill across trade, SSF and HC leagues and races.

Melee has its issues for sure, but that is not what is holding you back lmao

I'm not talking about my build, its not perfect and don't even is starting to work since every item i need to get stronger is now 7 divine above minimum.

But i played a deadeye lightin arrow and with less than 50 chaos orb i was able to put 3M dps, i already spend 5 divines in my juggernaut and the return is really slow.


Playing ranged is far easy, i can easily ignore 90% of the mechanics of the game easily.

Spoiler

My experience playing melee since its my first league is.

To get any closer of a ranged build i have to spend way more than any ranged build. and its full of gimmicks, tricks to work at 100%

My Lightning arrow build i just need to press 2 buttons to hit 3m dps

My boneshatter jugg need way way more income to work as close as need to cast everytime 2 times of after 10 seconds totems that mighty get one shotet by any monster,

I first build a 4700 life jugg, max res, good armor, was getting one shoted and damage was really low.

Then i went to 3700 life jug, hit 1,5m dps, still got one shot by monsters anyway.

The problem is risk, with deadeye lightning arrow i can clear a map in less than 2 minutes and explode the boss really fast without even being hit.

Boneshatter jugg my experience is, if the enemy don't get killed in the first hit and if it cause any ammount of damage i m probrably dead,

I already seen a tom of build of boneshatter and all then to work fine i need to spend almost 6 times more to just works, with all dissavantages.

So to make a melee build viable i have to play at disavantage, spend more, cast point on armor, cast a lot of points on life and pray that someone will sell a good equipment or try to get lucky and craft one.

I'm not the best player by far but half of my points i spend on the tree feels useless, i beat all the bosses until now with jugg and in the mid of fight i could only think, this fight would be really easy in a ranged class, the boss would have even chance.

The problem is if i have to spend more to make a thing work just the half of efficiency of any ranged build is it balanced?


"but you can facetank any bosses in game after you spend 900 divines"

Ranged players are killing bosses in less than 4 seconds and they don't need half of the bullshit i need.

I suggest you to read my last comment in this thread, and maybe it could help you understand a bit about balancing. If you don't understand it, I will put more time, do an easier text and more pedagogic. I just write in the forum quite fast because english is not main language and I will not put more time in then what I did in last post. I could spend two hours and make it better.

Even the comment you wrote about "it will cost 900 divines" is in fact wrong. But not in the wa you think it works. It is time investment. You can put 900 divines in time. If you wont then why should your build be balanced to someone put time in that 900 divines?

The argument about it was cheaper to play this build and was doable. Fine, then your problem already is solved. Read the part about Football Manager! Manchester City is a better team than Halifax - City will not cost 900 divines in time, but Halifax will for sure and maybe you ned 20 000 divines instead.

The outcome to last will be that everything everyone wants for thier 30 million dps with a defense out os normal will be free. The other way on this line is that you will spend 900 divines in time for that (today cheap build) but 15 000 divines in time for the melee ones).

I hope you see what I mean. I am not sure this game is balanced as it should, but I am sure we can't judge that just count the parts we will count. You need a compleate schedule over all part - and that should be balanced in the end. I hope they are close, even not I am sure they are close enough.

All in all everything goes hand by hand. My templar now is insane pushing, but he living on the edge sometimes. It is my choice. I have created character that can stand in a pack of six mobs and will never die (easy example I know).

It's complicated - and then don't try to count in a simple way. It is like saying that "in game P all can finish". Thats not an apple, lets keep the discussion to pears!

"

aldrimus wrote:

Aside from this thread being completely derailed, I thought I'd add my 2c.

Spoiler

I agree with the original poster that melee suffers a lot in this game.

As for Poe.ninja, set it to week 1, and then restrict it to level 100. Guess what... 4% righteous fire, 6% boneshatter (including divergent). So 10% of players using a 'melee' skill are keeping pace with the other skills. You can check other days and it's fairly consistent.

Some difficulties with melee:
- most melee skills require you to stop moving and spam attacks. This is inherently more vulnerable than many other abilities - eg. dots, arrow rains, minions, totems, etc.
- most melee skills require you to be close to the target. There are a lot of auras, bursts, shotgun-type mechanics and corpse explosions that one-shot if you are close, particularly since archnemesis.
- the defensive requirements of melee are higher since a large number of the mobs in the game hit only in melee.
- the melee hit requirements ties up stats/resources that other builds don't have to invest.
- most melee skills do not 'screen clear', chain, or kill off the screen - this results in more incoming damage and slower clear speeds.
- there are numerous ground effects that mobs can stand in which melee have to play around, while ranged can just stand in a safe patch.
- melee gear seems to be some combination of rarer, more specific, or more difficult to craft.
- on top of all that, melee skills tend to scale worse for overall damage.
- Melee builds require the totem support for viable dps, which is lame. Stopping to cast down a couple totems just doesn't feel good. A well optimized "1-button" melee build trying to kill a tanky mob or a boss might actually need to use anc warchief, anc protector, berserk, bloodrage, vaal haste and vaal grace. Then try to kill it...and replace your totems every time they die - which is every few seconds in most content where you need their damage.

It's not that it isn't viable to play - it's that it's more investment for less reward.

Of course, I'm not good at the game, so.... /shrug.

And if it is like you say - is t a problem? I didnt get that part. You explained how it works (as you see it at least) and I say, okay but you are not forced to this. Slower clear speed for example. If everything has the same clear speed, same safe places, some dps and same of all other "crap" - and the only thing you can tell part is from eachother is the visual effects. I am not saying you have these thoughts, but comment of "you basic facts".

Chess - maybe the most balanced game in world. No luck, not white are better on this and black is better that this. Only the pieces are unbalanced against oher kind of pieces. White have slighty adanvantage because of starting the game, means one move more. To compare it is like saying, I want my pawn to be better, he can't "kill" like the rock. Then place your rock so it can "kill" instead, but the pawn is stronger early game. Rock maybe the worst of them all (except King). That doesnt mean no one will ever move that rock. I know its a different game, build different and is not like this game or Football Manager. But in balancing we can see a few things that seems bad, but ...

If you don't like totems, don't play totems. If you must use totenms (your opinion) when playing melee - your choice is to play melee and accept the totems or play something else and you will not have any totems. Isn't that a good freedom you were given? I hate zombies, but I dont blame the game giving me a +3 level in zombie gems and 200% increased speed and damage with zombies. It is my choice. Bad luck I will never have ugly stinking zombies around me - it's enough that I am a "zombie"!

And think of that day, when people join, play the game, don't look at all crappy sites about build and "have to either ..." ot see and follow else "this is the best". But the freedom, play as you want but dont complain and whine (not speaking of you) after.

I wonder, how would all players done before all these guides and stuff? (I say the part to see stats in pob is legit because it would in fact be in the game). We chatted, asked, developed but from our own conclusions. Brain not living people killed Diablo long time ago. I see the same tendences here. "Loot is bad, it drops not my class ..." ---> means "I just want best loot to drop to my class ..." and then all those will drop before Hillock. One piece for every slot. Then yes, its level 1, but level can scale with your level. Sounds fun?

I have to summon skeletons every sicth second other my determination aura will disappear. Yeah, it would be nice with neverdying skels but its about my choice ahat my priority is. Do I want three uprunning auras, the cost is summon skels as hell. Most used button (not true but close).

If I want an easy game get the best gear and so, I would play Diablo or else. If I really like this game and don't wanna play anything different, then the last thing is following a guide - Do I like the game then? Easier look at a streamer then, probably doing all content 50 times faster than me.

Sorry if last part (last 99,78 percent) was not directly to you. Focus at beginning and "is it a problem"?

"

HunterDIII wrote:

And why some melee physical skills do even cost mana? i'm just winging a weapon around lol.

People who says melee is really good, i've never seen then playing melee.

How about to make some monster have some kind of shield against ranged projectiles? make then reflect some bullets back and watch ranged players complain about they die a lot cause they never needs to build any kind of protection for their builds to acctualy works.

A balanced game where you pick parts and they are not balanced does not mean game is unbalanced. Doing as you suggest is about you want other to get it harder. Would Manchester City play bad as a tier 5 team? Just so the once playing them should complain? That would be an unbalanced game for sure.

Melee doesnt cost any mana at all if you don't pick "magic skill gem that adds somthing".

Try use the wheatstones and the weapon will be +20 in quality and aldo do more phys damage (pure melee, not a melee weapon with ele dmg, thats not pure melee) and you will see that you do more damage.

Then, maybe it will be hard finish the game at pure melee, but if you as a melee can have ele res it already failed there, dont you think?

But what is most important for you when playing the game? I think it is here we can find the difference in how you see it vs I see it. What is your specific goals in the game? What is the most challenging you have tried (you, not coyy others challenge playstyle).

Think about those thing, I hope you will find a lot of answers on your own. Other I could discuss and as written before!

"

To get any closer of a ranged build i have to spend way more than any ranged build. and its full of gimmicks, tricks to work at 100%

Where is this myth coming from? Boneshatter league starter is one of the most popular league starters in the game exactly because it is cheap, easy and doesn't require gimmicks other than stun.

Boneshatter was the third most popular build on day one SC
https://poe.ninja/builds/ancestor?time-machine=day-1
and even now it is top 10
https://poe.ninja/builds/ancestor

It is even MORE popular in HC, sharing top spot with explosive arrow totems
https://poe.ninja/builds/ancestorhc/?time-machine=day-1
and is top 3 right now
https://poe.ninja/builds/ancestorhc/

The build is tankier and cheaper than ranger. Maybe it has less clear speed but it makes up for it by not dying. I myself reached level 98 this league with it and spent only around 3 divines. 3 divines to not die in tier 16 maps with delirium and ritual.

So please, don't get hung up on the myth that melee is so much worse than ranged because it is not, numbers prove it.

And before someone says "hurr durr it's only Boneshatter" - I don't care. It is still a melee strike skill.