Exalted Orbs are worthless
" A difference is that a LOT more Chaos orbs drop due to exarch mechanics. That naturally would lead to the apparent price increases people say they see. The removal of the 6L->'Main Trading Currency' recipe probably explains the rest... and yes, that recipe had to go given the amount of 6L's now dropping. |
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"I dont know what you mean with "integral for most crafting process" but from my POV what matters is the effective cost of the crafting process. And that does not require Exalts being cheap. "Do Exalts really have more use than Divines apart from those uses they only get due to them being cheaper? If Divines would be as cheap as Exalts they would still be used for rolling Timeless Jewels? From my POV almost all expensive rare gear pieces will see a Divining at some point. But how many gear pieces have a mod that came from an Exalt slam? "They can also hit a jackpot with a chaos slam... "If they want crafting to be cheaper they can trivially make it so by increasing drop rates or reducing metamod costs. "My POV is not a gameplay POV. I dont care much about it either way from gameplay side. Its a trust and fluff POV. They screwed over various types of people (card creators, standard hoarders, ...) for no good reason. (My gameplay related arguments are here to support the "for no good reason" claim - if thats not clear.) "I dont disagree with the goal "make Divines valuable". What I disagree with (similar to OP) is the devaluation of Exalts. "They are critical for some uniques and when they were cheaper (Harvest craft, Leo, etc) I used them a lot on all kind of gear. Even now with their relatively high price there are some mods (like chaos damage on Bows, %reduced flask charges on belt, ...) on rare gear that sometimes really want a Divine. "My take is that for my SSF playing Exalt slam does not have much impact. No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
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" See, this is why i say its kinda clear you dont have crafting experience, exalt slam has long been a big part for most crafts, harvest made a temporary halt, but now its removed, many crafts involve exalting at one point-one slam per attempt at least and youll likely make tons of attempts " Get into your head: YES, many crafting process uses exalts for slams-LOTS of slams, even before we had annul-and-replace mechanics that are much more efficient with slamming, it was used in conjuction with metacrafts for stuff that was made one half at a time especially after annul entered the scene ages ago. Divining is only the albsolute final step, used on an item that is effectively already done " No, chaos replaces every mod, exalting usuable 4/5-affix anything just to fill the last mod and test your luck for a chance of a 6th usable that improves the item makes sense, chaosing anything usable just dont " Or they could do what they did and give divines some pratical usage. Also just tampering with exalts drops would send shockwaves on the whole economy because craft costs would decrease a LOT, as lowering both slaming and metamoding costs would change craft costs dramatically. The swap basicaly enabled casual exalting without big effects on metamodcraft in a way that made more sense than tampering with drop rates on one side and balancing on the other by incresing metamod costs to double digits of exalts " Good reason: Divines are not garbage. Before the change you only needed a handful for one or two particular affix, they tended to just sit on the stash because even selling then was hard. To the point if you lacked chaos/exalts and tried to negociate dealing in alternate currency, it was easier for the other guy accept the pay in aguments that at least could be converted to alts than in divines. Now there is actually a point in hoarding them, also, casual exalt slaming is doable without extensively re-working metacrafting prices " Exalts usability was recovered big time with harvest nerf. If you remove the trade value aspect, they are more useful now than they were since harvest entered the game, so idk why a ssf guy would complain " The full range of difference on divining damage affixes falls on the realm you can only notice the diference between a max and a min roll if you put on pob, flask mods rolls are only relevant for mantaining 100% uptime and that is only really game-changing on olroth builds, fairly sure most players will tell that using the currency to increase slightly your clear speed is far more worth it than investing on perfecting a flask mod that would just give an extra 4 charges per cycle " Exalt slam have massive impact on normal game. I also see ssf streamers slaming often, so... *shrug* |
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"You didnt even try to answer my question? Nor address my point that the whole crafting cost is the relevant thing not the cost of some individual piece. "Im not talking about "the past" here. My question was: How many crafted items have 1+ mod that is the result of an Exalt slam? (You seem to be obfuscating the issue.) "You removed your own context here. Where do those casuals get those 4/5-affix items "without the burden of burning serious trade value"? Also just look at it logically: If its possible to hit the jackpot with 1x exalt then the item must have trade value. This is an economic inevitability. And none of this changes that chaos slam can hit the jackpot. "Are you seriously arguing that what they did somehow didnt "send shockwaves" etc? "I have still not seen a single (non jewel) crafting process where this actually matters. (And if it uses expensive metamods its not "casual exalting".) "You are just saying this without explanation. "Its not a good reason because that goal could have been achieved easily otherwise. They were so cheap because of the 6link vendor recipe. Even without metamod function they are better than 'sacred orb' which is alot more expensive than Exalt now. "Again: Show practical value for a cheap casual exalt slam craft? "Basic economics: Price and rarity reflect usefulness. And rarity is high esp as people dont farm the cards anymore, and price is low. "What makes sense is to use the cheapest possible approach to get better gear. And if you have expensive gear pieces then Divining is often cheaper to get the same "more power" than other options. Your argumentation blatantly disregards this simple min-max principle. "You havent shown a single example. "Dont know if that is true or not but it doesnt contradict what I wrote. No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
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" Craft costs remained the same, witch i suspect was part of the goal. The slam is cheaper and it was balanced with metamods being slightly more expensive. They managed to make cheaper slams without impacting significantly high craft costs " Okay, i didnt want to go for it, but im gonna make a knowledge test: Ashlyn 4 is one of the most popular craft pieces out there, how many craft sprocess involving ashlyn dont involve exalting or cant be optimized with an exalt slam?(not many, i assure you) Or for that matter, can you even explain why exalting before ashlyn is considered important? How many examples of itemcraft involving metacrafts of affix protection that dont involve exalt slam outside armor with eater and sering influence can you name? Its not "the past", its firmly present " You seriously think 4/5 usuable affix is rare or expensive? Almost everything that people often have when they first reach red maps falls into this category, stuff that can be measured in no more than dozens of chaos to trade or produce. Anything measured in a few dozen chaos is fodder for slam in a context where exalts are cheap, you dont need a super specific or strong result to get your slam's worth if that slam costs just a dozen chaos And btw, no, outside some jewels blind chaos jackpot falls in the realm its often not worth going for. Since chaosing is like getting a new drop, youre better off just relying on drops for normal stuff, the item level is likely gonna be higher than chaosing stuff you have and until fairly late in the game, the base is not going be one of the valuable ones to justify investing on it. Even if the base is solid, the chances for a jackpot on something like a high level influenced vermillion ring are just abysmal. Both are not even unrelated, its not uncommon to chaos spam stuff like jewels and compliment results with exalt slams " It didnt, the cost of metacrafting and the prices of stuff didnt changed dramatically, the orb used to trade changed, but in terms of chaos or alts, the costs havent changed drastically " I said just tampering with drop rates would impact craft costs significantly, more generous drops to the point of the difference being noticeable would impact metacrafting costs a lot, its not rocket science " Please, the 6-link recipe only made sure everybody had the few divines they needed and nobody ever wanted to buy one, the sheer fact that 6-links drops were enough to fullfill the divines needs of most people tells how little usage they had Sacred orb is a heck of a strawman, as its former divines's sister currency that is hard to drop but have next to no pratical worth, hence, it sits on that same spot where the value difference between buy offers and sell offers differs significantly. Its another one that is hard to convert to most used currency unless you are willing to take a hit on around 33% of the trade value if you sell it compared to if you wait the looong time until someone wispers to buy from you " Your "basic economics" is actually wrong, the correct way to say it is: "Price is a reflection of rarity and usefulness", and no, its not just a word swap for the sake of grammar, it does make pratical difference Because rarity is not related to usefullness in any way, correlation of price and usefullness exists but its not as straightfoward as you seem to think: alts are vastly more useful than sacreds or pre-swap divines on every level of play and they are both vastly cheaper and more common " Nah, divining any affix does not make noticeable diference in gameplay unless we are talking about reaching a specific breaking point, wich is why divining is restricted to reservation affixes and the like. If youre divining damage affixes, youre either seeking perfection or straight up doing it wrong, youre better off saving that currency to better afford a meaningful upgrade " Just pointing out most experienced players dont agree with that vision that exalts seem worthless not being metacraft prices. Both on trade mode and on ssf |
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People wouldnt dislike having exalted drops if they didnt knew it "kinda" is the same weight as a divine orb chance.. they feel cheated probably, everytime an exalted drop that was a possible divine but you lost the coin flip.
"Parade your victories, hide your defeats. Mortals are so insecure."
Once you break the cycle of fear no angels or demons can whisper you their sweet nothing words. poe0.2/10. Nuff said. |
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" I mean wasn't it the same before just in reverse? People didn't really complained much about divine drops leagues before the ex-div meta craft switch was made. Flames and madness. I'm so glad I didn't miss the fun. Last edited by Pashid#4643 on Jul 19, 2023, 3:25:05 AM
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" Because divine orbs were much more useful for the average player than exalted orbs. Considering that most dont interact with crafting and everything around it.. "Parade your victories, hide your defeats. Mortals are so insecure."
Once you break the cycle of fear no angels or demons can whisper you their sweet nothing words. poe0.2/10. Nuff said. |
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I like the Zrev/Feike argument, both sides arguing very well and politely.
I agree more with most of Feike's responses: especially with restructuring the "Price is a reflection of rarity and usefulness" equation. This is big and key to the argument. Rarity in-and-of itself has zero connection to usefulness. Just because an item is more rare doesn't mean it is automatically "better". And the economic equation is "Supply and Demand", which denotes price. Supply = rarity, demand = usefulness. These aren't interchangeable terms... However, I also agree with Zrevnur that I completely disagree with the "usefulness" of exalts in current PoE. Slamming outside of jewelcraft is NEVER a good decision, unless you are ready to sink thousands of exalts into the process. Most players are NOT sinking thousands of exalts on slams...A single exalt is essentially worthless to the average player, as there are so many other methods to fill out mods that work BETTER. If you have a 4-mod item, it is ALWAYS BETTER to benchcraft a single mod and LEAVE the item at 5 mods than to fill it out with exalt slams. Both from a trade value standpoint, but also a usefulness standpoint. Especially if you have an open prefix and suffix slot. The odds of getting total crap from the slam are incredibly high, but the ability to switch bench crafts at will between a prefix and a suffix depending on what you need is invaluable. Additionally, with a 5-mod item, the bench provides much more useful and higher rolled choice mods for crafting than a single exalt could ever hope to match for the reasonable player. Sure, in the long run, thousands of exalts and annulling might result in a better end product....but there certainly aren't many players doing that. To distill: Feike makes good arguments, but I am on Zrevnur's side with the idea that exalts hold next to zero value for 99% of the players in PoE at the moment. And the players that DO use exalts to slam, without planning to use thousands of them and crafting to the end, are making a serious mistake. It really doesn't matter whether exalts are used in popular crafting techniques: that doesn't make them any less useless to everyone who ISN'T high-end crafting. A potential fix: change exalt functionality from total randomness. Have the likelihood of rarer options be better on a higher ilvl item. Perhaps have benchcrafts that cost 2+ exalts offer better odds on specific types of slams. For example, 5ex benchcraft results in a slam that is more likely to have the "physical" tag. Not guaranteed (like harvest), but simply more likely. Last edited by jsuslak313#7615 on Jul 19, 2023, 6:29:14 PM
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"And its still zero examples. And I dont mean "affix protection" but something which will remain on the final item or do you mean you can sometimes score a lucky hit with "affix protection"? "I was not arguing against that. Maybe its a misunderstanding of the phrase "hit the jackpot": If there are 50 equally likely possible affixes to hit and you got 50 chaos value item+exalt then the "jackpot" has at most 2500 chaos value. Thats the economic logic I meant. "If you consider that change and its consequences as "no shockwaves" then your statement "Also just tampering with exalts drops would send shockwaves on the whole economy because craft costs would decrease a LOT, as lowering both slaming and metamoding costs would change craft costs dramatically." makes no sense? Tampering with drop rates to achieve certain crafting costs obviously has less "shockwaves" than exchanging Divines and Exalts to achieve certain crafting costs. "I have no idea what you are trying to say: Tampering with drop rates impacts craft costs at most as much as the tampering which can be "significant" or not. Why would it matter if its "noticeable" or not? What I said and you responded to is that "If they want crafting to be cheaper they can trivially make it so by increasing drop rates or reducing metamod costs." What you are arguing here does not seem to relate to what you responded to. See link here: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/post-reply/3405181#p25032663 " What is your actual argument here? Mine was that Divines can easily be made valuable by reducing drop rates (and removing the recipe). And if they also want them to be useful in a spammy way they could have split the metamods into Divine and Exalt ones. There was no need to devalue the Exalted orb to achieve the goal "Make Divines valuable". "If rarity is fixed (which is what I meant: how hard it is to farm etc) then the 2 statements are identical. "All your talk about "noticeable" "breaking point" "restricted" etc suggests that maybe you dont understand min-maxing or math? Math doesnt care if you can "notice" it and it doesnt need to be "meaningful". DPS (etc) is ruled by math and not by whether you can "notice" it. "They arent worthless. But if non-deterministic non-Jewel Exalting would always result in a dead mod it wouldnt change much for my gear progression either - thats what I meant. No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!
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