Sometimes I feel like I'm playing a VERY different game from everyone else...

I've spent a lot of time on the forums. Perhaps that is my undoing.

Most (keyword: most, not ALL) complaints boil down to "Why do we need 3rd party software to play the game", "Why doesn't the game tell us x", "Where is information y", throws glass at the wall, ragequits, GGG FIX IT.

Is the entire player-base no longer capable of simply playing the game?

When I play this game, even now with a lot of experience under my belt, I learn new things....by playing the game! The only 3rd party software I use is PoB, and that's mainly because after my first few builds of a league I just want to try out someone else's work because its fun and quick. But I've never felt like I NEEDED PoB, NEEDED build guides, NEEDED youtube videos etc. That's such a weird concept to me...

When I pick up a game, the first thing I do is sit down and play the game. I'm not about to read a wiki, or read a guide, or watch someone else play the game. I play the damn game myself. I make stupid decisions, I adjust, I learn, I have a fun time. I hit walls that might last days, but eventually I'll overcome the wall and progress even further and NEVER hit that wall again.

Why has gaming reversed direction? ESPECIALLY within the PoE community. Since when do you read the wikipedia synopsis of a movie before going to see the movie? Since when do you look up all the best strategies before you sit down and play a game? Since when do you feel like you need to know every little thing about a game before you just experience it for yourself? Since when do you ONLY enjoy a game when you immediately have the most power possible right from the beginning? THat's like playing a game for the first time, with all the cheat codes enabled from the very start.

It boggles my mind and frustrates me to no end. I keep coming back for more, but I notice myself always being driven to the same responses to various threads...just play the game! Observe what is happening around you! Feel out your character and gameplay! So what if your build isn't optimized to hell? So what if your underpowered? Are you having fun? Running a PoE simulator just isn't the same experience as playing PoE.

I think you've got it wrong.

The idea of guides is to let you enter the complex world of PoE by following one of many examples of how you can build a character.

The amount of mechanics, stats, perks and quirks to everything in PoE is so huge that it's just overwhelming. So you get into PoE, you follow a guide yuo learn in-game league mechanics, some basic concepts and then you realise what you actually like. Once you know what you actually like you can develop yourself into that area and follow into the rabbit hole which is incredibly deep regardless which you take ;)

Don't get frustrated, it's actually to PoE's advantage that it's not as other games. That's why it has such a stable community over the years.

^ Lmao what a great panel, but yeah OP you are playing a different game to everyone else as your objectives differ is all.

I don't disagree with you in the big picture. But why wouldn't you use a few more sites to help out besides Path of Building. How about chromatic calculator? How about Craft of Exile to check the possible prefix/suffix on items and calculate the most efficient method to craft? How about Filterblade?

I find it almost impossible to believe that you only use POB.

Getting stuck dozens or hundreds of times not knowing why and not even having a way to find out why without extensive google research simply isn't fun to most people. "Just playing the game" in POEs case is the most frustrating and inefficient way to play it. Even if you don't end up getting stuck all the time, you'll be so far behind economically that most content is completely out of the question you'll have to limit yourself to the most basic stuff causing you to fall behind even further. You either enjoy playing the game in the most efficient way i.e economy simulation with arpg minigames inserted here and there or you need to be able to completely block out any thoughts about completing the game or being efficient while still having fun. Not many people can do that.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

When I pick up a game, the first thing I do is sit down and play the game. I'm not about to read a wiki, or read a guide, or watch someone else play the game.

Everyone except very few pick up PoE and start this way. But as they exhaust the base game they start to look to improve their play somehow - they need to farm more efficiently, faster in order to acquire better gear. As their gear and currency requirements grow they hit a point where they recognize they lack game knowledge or particular information that they need to improve their character.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

Since when do you look up all the best strategies before you sit down and play a game? Since when do you feel like you need to know every little thing about a game before you just experience it for yourself?

Since never. People start to do that only when they aspire to dig deeper into the game. And PoE is so successful exactly because of the depth it offers.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

So what if your build isn't optimized to hell? So what if your underpowered? Are you having fun? Running a PoE simulator just isn't the same experience as playing PoE.

The problem is that you can go through the tedium of the early game progress only so many times. At some point you require at least some abstraction tools, that free you from the previous boring tedium. 3rd party tools serve as these abstraction tools. E.g. poelab - you could go and explore, get lost in the labyrinth yourself when you make your 5th character in the league, but by that point this lab is just a tedium, it doesn't offer any enjoyment or new experiences - you know you'll eventually find the exits, but it will be slower. At that point you have your mind set on building your character and need the ascendancy points. This is where poelab comes in.

Another example - craftofexile. You are not machine, you can't perfectly recall all the modifiers in this game. When you set out to craft a new item, you can't just miraculously remember a set of modifiers and what item levels they have from your previous experience. Even if you make the same item every league for the same build every league. Unless you're some kind of prodigy, you just can't retain all that information in your brain.

So I'm right there with you OP, the LAST thing I want to do at the start of a game is read a wiki, and I -love- super complex games, I cut my teeth on XCOM. No not XCOM 2. XCOM. No not that one either, that's Enemy Within. I'm talking the 2D sprites one. The one with Time Units.

So I'm not exactly a stranger to playing games that kick your teeth in as the default, and don't exactly explain themselves. I'm not blaming players for not liking the difficult, or the complexity, I've got more than my fair share of critizism of the game and things I'd fix or change, but man do I love the game faults and all.

And I'd rather just scrape together what I can figure out than read a wik. Not that I don't also do that after I've gotten a ton of first hand experience, looking to confirm or deny things, or crack the code on something I just can't quite figure out (generally because I can't get a big enough sample size).

But I also don't get why folks don't go "Oh this game isn't a game for me.", or seek to make a game they dislike into a different game they do like. Chances are that different game exists, just have fun playing that. This is even more true now with D4. If you don't like PoE, D4 is right there, Torchlight, Lost Arc, D3, D2, D2R and whatever else still exists and is pretty easy to get, most of them have world releases, there's nothing wrong with liking what you like.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

Is the entire player-base no longer capable of simply playing the game?

Apparently, this is not possible. The most eager critics will tell you that you need a PhD to progress in PoE, and that you need 25 different third-party tools/sites to succeed in PoE, and therefore, the game isn't new/casual player friendly.

There are of course several huge holes in that argument. They are so glaring that pointing them out is more or less unnecessary.

A lot of this criticism comes from the amount of hand-holding in games today, I think. People want to be told exactly what to do at all times, and if you find an item on the ground, they want the game to tell you if you need it or not; if it's better than what you have equipped. Some of them just want to kill monster, and don't want to be forced to actually think about gearing, progressing, building, planning or trying, failing, trying again, succeeding; all of which I think are essential to an ARPG.

The fact is: NO ONE needs third party tools/sites, min-maxing or any of that sort to beat the main story. This can be done with all skills, and it can be done by new and casual players. Once you hit the endgame, things change a little bit. The game demands more from you, as it should in an endgame. It requires you to try, fail, seek knowledge, test and try again. Things aren't A to Z, things aren't necessarily straight forward.

But some players have this "uber juiced 100% deli T16 maps and Uber bosses should be for everyone"-attitude, and measures everything in the game based on those goals. Based on the few % of players doing that content. Should a new/casual player have those goals? Not really. But if he does, he should probably WANT to learn and WANT to seek knowledge.

Now, with that said: Could PoE be more beginner friendly? Sure. Should PoE do a better job at teaching you certain necessities like loot filters and stuff? Yes. Should the game have a better progression curve, where Act 1 isn't the hardest? Of course.

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

Is the entire player-base no longer capable of simply playing the game?

Apparently, this is not possible. The most eager critics will tell you that you need a PhD to progress in PoE, and that you need 25 different third-party tools/sites to succeed in PoE, and therefore, the game isn't new/casual player friendly.

There are of course several huge holes in that argument. They are so glaring that pointing them out is more or less unnecessary.

A lot of this criticism comes from the amount of hand-holding in games today, I think. People want to be told exactly what to do at all times, and if you find an item on the ground, they want the game to tell you if you need it or not; if it's better than what you have equipped. Some of them just want to kill monster, and don't want to be forced to actually think about gearing, progressing, building, planning or trying, failing, trying again, succeeding; all of which I think are essential to an ARPG.

The fact is: NO ONE needs third party tools/sites, min-maxing or any of that sort to beat the main story. This can be done with all skills, and it can be done by new and casual players. Once you hit the endgame, things change a little bit. The game demands more from you, as it should in an endgame. It requires you to try, fail, seek knowledge, test and try again. Things aren't A to Z, things aren't necessarily straight forward.

But some players have this "uber juiced 100% deli T16 maps and Uber bosses should be for everyone"-attitude, and measures everything in the game based on those goals. Based on the few % of players doing that content. Should a new/casual player have those goals? Not really. But if he does, he should probably WANT to learn and WANT to seek knowledge.

Now, with that said: Could PoE be more beginner friendly? Sure. Should PoE do a better job at teaching you certain necessities like loot filters and stuff? Yes. Should the game have a better progression curve, where Act 1 isn't the hardest? Of course.

I mean sure if you want to qualify "success" in PoE by shifting goalposts to solidify your opinion, that's effective. It reads well, but doesn't mean anything. It surely doesn't translate to anyone that actually has familiarity with playing this game.

I don't really understand the overall case you are making in terms of the new player or casual experience here, and how that compares to a player that is experienced, or uses 3rd party tools to their advantage?

Can an experienced player wear blue gear and kill Kitava? Yeah. Can an experienced player maximize skills gems and get by the campaign and early maps with some 4L's? Yup. Can someone with crafting knowledge and vendor recipes tricks supplement the initial leveling process and progession? For sure.

Can a new player, or someone that isn't as experienced do so? No.
How could they? You can't go into PoE cold, with no supplemental information or knowledge, and have a "sucessful" time in PoE. And it certainly won't be enjoyable. (For most non sadistic folks)

To make the case that the game is new player or casual friendly, in even the remotest sense, is totally disengenous, to the point that of a nearly trollish opinion given your experience level. That isn't playful ignorance, it's willful misinformation.

Hell I would go as so far to say that if you eliminated all 3rd party tools, more than half of the existing players would leave. And that's a conservative estimate. If that's true wouldn't it stand to reason that new players, or average invested folks, would feel the same with their initial, or limited, experience? Of course it does.

So yeah, you dont "need" anything supplemental in PoE to get by. Most just wouldn't play without them, or your experience would suffer greatly. That defeats the entire purpose of playing the game (or any game for that matter), which is presumably for enjoyment / entertainment.

And lastly, bemoaning an entire generation of gamers because of the proliferation of information, well... I don't know what to tell you. At the very least just acknowledge you are old, and a totally different gamer. I did that awhile back. Younger gamers, who I have many in my family, like Twitch, and YouTube, content creators and guides, meta builds, and knowing what to do. The fact they are enjoying themselves is far more important than me thinking "how can that be? I wouldn't."