I'm sick of zoom meta. (Speed creep created bad combat and game balance)

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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Kaboinglefop wrote:

But PoE devolved into this mess due to demand. PoE1 will fill that demand, PoE2 can fill the new demand.

No league has had players directly demand speed, Zoom meta wasn't created by player demand its simply the end of the path the developers chose with the changes they made.

The reason i'm saying this is PoE2 will go in the same direction if they make the same decisions. Power creep is a dangerous tool and its very challenging to get it right, even more so to get it right every 3/4 months.

Indeed, POE isn't fast because players demanded it. POE is fast because GGG scoped to allow it, and incentivized and rewarded it more than any other way to play.

Combine out of bounds DPS and AOE + Unlimited speed + Movement skill spam + automation = lack of bounding which guranteed clear speed meta.

Set your win condition to earning orbs from millions of kills = incentive

Its actually very simple why POE's clear speed meta evolved.

GGG made it possible and they made it the correct way to win the game. they made it the only deterministic way to play as well (earn orbs and buy items is 100% deterministic)

If they had made the correct way to play the game to be as thorough and perceptive as possible or as careful and clever as possible then POE would be played that way. Want POE to be more SOuls like? make combat slower and more individually lethal and don't let players blaze past and ignore 90% of the game as they do. But they didn't do that.

If they had made the correct way to play the game being tanky and slow, being highly dexterous and reflexive, or recognizing patterns, remembering sequences (puzzles and such)... that would be what most players would do.

But they scoped the game to require millions of kills, and the correct way to play the game to look a lot like a bullet hell space ship shooter.

So naturally thats what they got.

I am still expecting that POE2's incentives and bounding will also make POE2 turn into a bullet hell space ship shooter. I don't see the bounding or the cchange in incentives/win conditions that would indicate otherwise.

Most mechanics in the game want you to go fast or bust.
Until they make it so slow and steady can get shit done without failing encounters "cause wasnt fast enough or didnt kill monsters fast enough" there is no way to shake the speed meta.

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Bosscannon wrote:

Until they make it so slow and steady can get shit done without failing encounters "cause wasnt fast enough or didnt kill monsters fast enough" there is no way to shake the speed meta.

I'll point it out, but every time GGG slow palyers down in any way, our "wonderful" community starts with the hate and death threats.

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lagwin1980 wrote:

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Bosscannon wrote:

Until they make it so slow and steady can get shit done without failing encounters "cause wasnt fast enough or didnt kill monsters fast enough" there is no way to shake the speed meta.

I'll point it out, but every time GGG slow palyers down in any way, our "wonderful" community starts with the hate and death threats.

Yep... exactly.
And for the people who talk about underwater -- that just isn't the case. All PoE2 feedback has been positive.

They just need to stop the SPEED CREEP.. it results in the bad drop tables, the bad monster balance/stupid 1shots, etc.

It's hard to balance around off-screening the entire game. But if they adjust offscreen and full clearing maps in under a minute? Community erupts.

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Bosscannon wrote:

Most mechanics in the game want you to go fast or bust.
Until they make it so slow and steady can get shit done without failing encounters "cause wasnt fast enough or didnt kill monsters fast enough" there is no way to shake the speed meta.

Agreed. But any content that gives a lot of reward for less clear results in terrible community feedback or low community engagement.
The zoomers want to spend more time looting and filtering items off the ground than actually fight anything.

None of them want to fight a boss with low dps -- they want to instantly phase it.

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alhazred70 wrote:

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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Kaboinglefop wrote:

But PoE devolved into this mess due to demand. PoE1 will fill that demand, PoE2 can fill the new demand.

No league has had players directly demand speed, Zoom meta wasn't created by player demand its simply the end of the path the developers chose with the changes they made.

The reason i'm saying this is PoE2 will go in the same direction if they make the same decisions. Power creep is a dangerous tool and its very challenging to get it right, even more so to get it right every 3/4 months.

Indeed, POE isn't fast because players demanded it. POE is fast because GGG scoped to allow it, and incentivized and rewarded it more than any other way to play.

Combine out of bounds DPS and AOE + Unlimited speed + Movement skill spam + automation = lack of bounding which guranteed clear speed meta.

Set your win condition to earning orbs from millions of kills = incentive

Its actually very simple why POE's clear speed meta evolved.

GGG made it possible and they made it the correct way to win the game. they made it the only deterministic way to play as well (earn orbs and buy items is 100% deterministic)

If they had made the correct way to play the game to be as thorough and perceptive as possible or as careful and clever as possible then POE would be played that way. Want POE to be more SOuls like? make combat slower and more individually lethal and don't let players blaze past and ignore 90% of the game as they do. But they didn't do that.

If they had made the correct way to play the game being tanky and slow, being highly dexterous and reflexive, or recognizing patterns, remembering sequences (puzzles and such)... that would be what most players would do.

But they scoped the game to require millions of kills, and the correct way to play the game to look a lot like a bullet hell space ship shooter.

So naturally thats what they got.

I am still expecting that POE2's incentives and bounding will also make POE2 turn into a bullet hell space ship shooter. I don't see the bounding or the cchange in incentives/win conditions that would indicate otherwise.

Much agree with the bolded portion.

The underlined portion scares me for the future of PoE2. Hopefully they rein in the speed creep.
Hopefully GGG actually reads this part of the forums.

Yes to elaborate on my point its simple, all ARPGs automatically focus on player speed because its a common representation of power

If you do content in a minute, you want to do it in 40s, that feels powerful and its an improvement which is where the satisfaction comes from.

However there is a difference between accepting players will run your content faster (ritual for example) and designing your content to be run faster (legion, delerium etc)

basically the first has linear scaling on speed the second has exponential scaling on speed and just makes everyone want to zoom.

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Draegnarrr#2823 wrote:

Yes to elaborate on my point its simple, all ARPGs automatically focus on player speed because its a common representation of power

If you do content in a minute, you want to do it in 40s, that feels powerful and its an improvement which is where the satisfaction comes from.

However there is a difference between accepting players will run your content faster (ritual for example) and designing your content to be run faster (legion, delerium etc)

basically the first has linear scaling on speed the second has exponential scaling on speed and just makes everyone want to zoom.

Correct, but looks like I got the game I want with PoE2. Loving every minute -- Enjoy the sandbox game!

You seem very experienced and respect to all what you say.. i can agree to. Looking at your profileyou are clearly a veteran.

Only honorable mention - diablo2 is speedrunning/zoom meta. You run for distance half naked - thats why its easier as poe. Only game i can speed quite quick in hc. Rest i 100% agree

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Kaboinglefop#0955 wrote:

UPDATE2: GREAT WORK WITH POE2! This thread is now irrelevant IMO!

Hell no, it is not! It's a beacon of hope for all of us that love a fast game play and as a reminder that POE1-mommy is still there for us! Because the truth is: