Crucible is Fundamentally Flawed - Especially at endgame

Looks clunky/nonsensical by design to me. Would be easy to fix though:

1. Do not require the weapon/xyz to be equipped. Optimally you can leave it "on the altar" until next map altar.

2. Allow unlimited number of free "resets" which destroy the current tree so that another one can then be revealed/created.

My guess is however that GGG intentionally added item/micro clunkiness. This is the same kind of thing which they did in Ruthless by changing Essences and Fossils to only work on white items. The way you can only use equipped items here is really ugly though - disjunct from the gameplay reality that this will be used for crafting bases more than for currently-in-use weapons.


Disclaimer: Didnt watch the trailer/reveal and my assumptions here are based on posts like those in this thread.

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Varana wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I haven't seen many threads about this specifically (I've made a few posts in another thread on it), so I'm not sure if people realize how incredibly annoying the Crucible mechanic will be in maps for players.
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The truth is every weapon that drops has the potential for interesting powerful passives, useful currency, or depending on the base, valuable unique transformation. If you want to check what's on the tree, as it is now, you need to take it to an alter. With only 1 per instance, you can see the bottleneck that is created.

Are you really going to be spamming quarry (or insert favorite instance spam), with an inventory of weapons, in order to find out what trees you weapon has? Or will you decide to completely skip all the weapons while mapping, unless it's directly related to the base of your specific build?
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We will see, but I think this is going to become a glaring issue, very quickly.

Possibly you're misconstruing the league mechanic. If it works like every other, you will get one and ONLY one crucible attempt per map (per party member?). So no matter how much stuff drops, you'll only have one chance to imbue/progress a weapon. The choice wil either be "check out this decent new rare which dropped" or "continue progressing this excellent base and see what's next", which is still very annoying but is a different problem.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this is how it will work. You can't check/imbue trees on everything, the only decision is whether to concentrate on one or risk changing up.

No you are right you get 1 attempt. So if there is more than one weapon you want to check you must stockpile. I mentioned quarry because its fast, and doesn't impact your map pool. It would be a somewhat quicker, albeit horrifically annoying, way to check the trees.

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innervation wrote:

Its hilarious that you're still strawmanning the league mechanic as 'I have to check all the items' when not only do you not have to, you are literally bottlenecked from doing so. Sheesh. If you think scoping out siege axes is your best play then do it.

It's not a strawman, people can do whatever they want. I'm not arguing about the the choice you have, that's always there. If a Divine orb drops you can choose not to pick it up. You can choose not to engage in the Legion or Breach mechanic if you want. In both cases you forgoe the rewards in order to move through the map quicker. (presumably)

At some point players make a decision on what the opportunity cost is so that it doesn't impact their experience. It's my personal opinion that Crucible, how it is described currently, provides poor costs to the players. Either skip it, or engage in a tedious process.

I fully understand I might be wrong here. It's just my take on the mechanic. It could also be true that many folks will realize what I'm saying as they start to play. Maybe this thread will be bumped on Friday or over next weekend, or maybe it will age like milk.

Edit: Or GGG may patch and tweak it based on feedback, which is probably the most optimal outcome.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Edit: Or GGG may patch and tweak it based on feedback, which is probably the most optimal outcome.

Feedback requires experience, which you do not have in this case because you haven't played it yet, the strawman here is you're making up the rules, because no one actually has first had experience with what those rules are, save for the devs.

And to be honest, there's tons of stuff that drops that 'could be valuabe' that I leave to rot, because I'm not playing anything that might care about it. If I'm running some sword cycloner, i'm not very interested in looting a wand, no matter how good it is, so on the ground they stay. You only get trapped in those 'but what if it's valuable' concepts if you let yourself be trapped in the idea that economic value is the important part of the game. And let me tell you, the games a lot more fun outside of that bubble.

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Northern_Ronin wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Edit: Or GGG may patch and tweak it based on feedback, which is probably the most optimal outcome.

Feedback requires experience, which you do not have in this case because you haven't played it yet, the strawman here is you're making up the rules, because no one actually has first had experience with what those rules are, save for the devs.

Huh? No one has played it obviously. What "rules" did I make up? I'm merely saying the design is flawed as constructed as I see it. (or at least how it has been explained).

GGG patches league mechanics all the time, thats a perfectly reasonable situation, and likely to occur to some degree.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

However, it seems as though GGG hasn't asked themselves the most basic question players will have once a weapon drops. "I wonder what the passive tree is on that?".

This question is relevant every time something drops. You are not "forced" to check them all and it is certainly not optimal to do so.

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It blows my mind that wasn't even thought of when it was being developed, considering the trees provide all the interest.

It blows my mind that you project your own hypothesis and try to make it seem the actual truth of the matter. In reality, we just don't know the mechanics of crucible .. yet.

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The truth is every weapon that drops has the potential for interesting powerful passives, useful currency, or depending on the base, valuable unique transformation.

FOMO? You are not describing a novel problem. Also, see my first comment.

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If you want to check what's on the tree, as it is now, you need to take it to an alter.

Again, speculation. You assume there is a tree on the item as it drops. Where does it say that this is the case? The phrasing in the reveal video is "you get to imbue your weapon with a tree".

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Are you really going to be spamming quarry (or insert favorite instance spam), with an inventory of weapons, in order to find out what trees you weapon has? Or will you decide to completely skip all the weapons while mapping, unless it's directly related to the base of your specific build?

I'll be playing maps. You are overanalysing.

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This choice seems objectively terrible.

You have succesfully constructed your straw man, attacked it and now you claim objectivity?

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Either skip the vast majority of drops, without knowing what's on them, or spend a ton of time figuring out whether they contain valuable nodes or not.

That will happen, regardless if you want to progress at a reasonable rate.

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If the opportunity cost is player time and frustration, I don't think that's a good way to go.

Agreed. Are those frustrations perhaps self-inflicted?

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It will drive people crazy very quickly imo. For those that say that's how PoE is now, skipping much of the loot, that's just disingenuous.

That's how it has been. What's so disingenuous about that? Your entire tirade is centered around your inability to check X amount of drops in Y (preferably short) amount of time.

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In current PoE you can't turn rares into valuable currency, Tier 0 unique items, or potentially recombinate their passives into other weapons.

That's a true statement.

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Basically, if you don't check every Siege Axe to see if it's a potential Soul Taker, if you don't check a weapon to see if it has multiple chaos orbs or divine orbs on them, if you don't check the passive nodes to see if there is a valuable level 5 node (you could use or trade), you are absolutely gimping yourself, or will have a feeling you did something wrong.

More FOMO.

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To be honest there is no great solution for this. If you make it so the trees are identified with wisdom scrolls, this really upsets the flow of mapping, having to ID everything. If you make the nodes reveal as you level (you cant see the whole tree), no one will pickup anything beyond what their build use because it so inefficient and time consuming.

So you claim that your first post is pointless?

^^ Well that was certainly a reply. Lets try and get through these:

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vlmndd wrote:

This question is relevant every time something drops. You are not "forced" to check them all and it is certainly not optimal to do so.

I never said "forced". That's not even possible. Please feel free to skip the entire league and all loot if you wish. Live your best life.

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It blows my mind that you project your own hypothesis and try to make it seem the actual truth of the matter. In reality, we just don't know the mechanics of crucible .. yet.

Fortunately there is a 20 minute video you can reference explaining the mechanic from GGG. Is it fully comprehensive? No. But it's all we have. Isn't that the point of making an opinion or feedback thread? I suppose we could all sit in silence, but that seems...reductive.

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Again, speculation. You assume there is a tree on the item as it drops. Where does it say that this is the case?

Well you have a choice initially when you select the first node? It's doesn't appear afterwards, so presumably that is how it functions. I don't know how you would interoperate the reveal video otherwise? I suppose that is somewhat speculative, but seems logical? How else would it be there to start with?

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I'll be playing maps. You are overanalysing.

No. Acting like people don't use Quarry or Foothills, or BA, to spawn mechanics, or target farm, either displays your ignorance, or identifies a bad faith response.

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You have succesfully constructed your straw man, attacked it and now you claim objectivity?

No. Read better

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Agreed. Are those frustrations perhaps self-inflicted?

I suppose unless you are suggesting there is another choice? Like not playing the mechanic, or even larger, not playing PoE at all. That's true but pretty reductive and doesn't accomplish anything. Players can limit themselves however they want, that's not what is being discussed, at all.

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What's so disingenuous about that?

See below.

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That's a true statement.

Of course it is, and why it's differnt than how you loot currently in PoE, which is disingenuous. Very convenient how you snipped that.

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More FOMO

Ok. Thank you acknowledging FOMO exists, more news at 11.

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So you claim that your first post is pointless?

No.

From a game programming standpoint it would make more sense for the alter to be the one that checks the item level, base type , unique or not. and then assign it a skill tree.

Otherwise you are adding pointless data to trillions of items that drop on the ground, Another issue is that those weapons that do not drop from this league will not have the passive tree available, therefore it will not work on items dropped before crucible meaning you would need to design two methods for the trees to be added to a weapon. Why not design only one ?

Its logical for it to be done this way even if from a gameplay perspective it may not be convenient, I'm hoping there are 3-4 alters per zone but we will have to wait and see.

I understand your frustration but honestly just sounds like b****ing to me.
Take care.

How are these questions any different then now... we dont pick up every single item and id it to see if it is good so why would we do that for these?

I think people will prob test it out by doing anything at first but as you go and get to endgame only shit you would use or stuff that you normally id to chance/sell would get used with this

Are you missing out? technically no since you wouldnt have picked up said item in the first place

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Lynerus wrote:

How are these questions any different then now... we dont pick up every single item and id it to see if it is good so why would we do that for these?

Because rare items now don't have the ability to transform into a Tier 0 unique, sell to the vendor for valuable currency, or have strong passives you can recombinate onto your main weapon.